Looking beyond the horror

When Hussein rode his Arabian horse to Karbala more than 1400 years ago, he knew the risks involved getting beheaded by nascent Muslims, but he did not know that his death would be incorporated into a pseudo-Arab martyrdom formula. What would Hussein, the prophet's grandson, think today if he heard Hassan Nasrallah, who chose life in a hole over decapitation, likening Gaza to Karbala?

There is no doubt in any Shia mind that Hassan Nasrallah is having a field day with what Israel is doing in Gaza.  Appearing on TV recently to condemn Israel, Egypt and his own lack of candor, he presented us with the same old two choices: surrender or resistance.

We are before a great scene from the scenes of Karbala… The truth about Karbala is that there is a group that believes and holds on to its dignity, rights and honor of the nation, refusing to obey the oppressors… It stood up and resisted. Whenever it is put before two choices: surrender or imbalanced resistance, it chooses resistance. We as Lebanese can understand what is happening Gaza. It is the same as what happened here... The same choices are offered, the same battle and, hopefully, the same result.

It’s Karbala all over again indeed, but not because Palestinians are dying, but because Nasrallah’s Karbala-propelled franchise is producing even more tragic results in Palestine than it did in Lebanon in 2006. Not only are Hamas' attacks against Israel predictably weak and strategically stupid, their people have not been able to savor the purity of Iranian money. Instead, they were made to live under siege, starving, unemployed, and slowly dying—at least until the bombs start falling.  Hizbullah in Lebanon at least feeds its martyrs.

All that should come as no surprise. Hamas failed to follow the path of Karbala (how can they even understand it?), and instead tried to jump to the conclusion of someone else’s adventure. Today, they are nowhere near liberating Palestine. But they’re very much in the same hole Nasrallah put his people in when he decided to stretch and franchise his resistance brand.

So Nasrallah lashes out at the evil Sunni regimes. This is all, he claimed, part of the plot to kill off the resistance in the region. Whether it’s bombardment of Gaza, or the Lebanese government trying to instill rule of law on its own territory, it’s all part of the same Arab-Israeli evil plot to shut down McNasrallah.

The hole that Hamas dug for itself and the people it hijacked may be getting deeper, but don’t count on this region’s inhabitants to lift the Palestinians out of this wretched existence, or see through Nasrallah’s rhetoric. Anger, most of it of course justified, is leading and blinding the way.  The tragic images from Gaza will provoke a lot of protests against the perpetrators of these war crimes. But will they provoke some soul searching, and re-examination of how best to get out of this vicious cycle? Is it through rockets, or a different kind of resistance?

Comments

[danny]

The decision of Israeli crackdown should not come as any surprise. Hamas had been itching for the fight miscalculating the overwhelming Israeli response. It seems this has less to do with Gaza then the designs of its architects Iran and Syria.
There seem to be multi purposed attack instigated by Iran/Syria to achieve certain goals:
a. Occupying the Israelis with Gaza ahead of a possible Israeli strike on its nuclear facilities
b. Creating a possible northern front in Lebanon, thus bogging down the Israeli army further. This will satisfy the Syrian endgame of destroying Lebanon and stalling the IT and somehow increasing its value as a stabilizing force…
c. Weakening the Arab states to export the Iranian resistance concept to strengthen its power grab through HA and Hamas…Therefore the open war by HA against Egypt (see escalating demonstrations against Egypt in Beirut)

I would suggest that the Iranian/Syrian miscalculations are continuing. Iran so strapped for cash and in anticipation of any strike against its nuclear facilities has decided to open up the Gaza front. Failing this I think that the next logical step would be the opening of the northern flank…Iran’s fear of a strike by Israel is very real. To safeguard its program Iran/Syria would not hesitate to risk Lebanon’s annihilation…
This achieves Iran’s purpose of bogging down Israel against HA and simultaneously would achieve the Syrian endgame of creating total chaos in Lebanon as well as stalling of the IT.

However, there is a great danger and risk in this strategy. Banking on a passive Obama would be a huge mistake. When Israel is attacked all bets are off! This could lead into a regime change in Syria as well as placing Lebanon under UN supervision as a failed state. Also it will cripple HA to a smaller terrorist organization from their current statelet and power base in Lebanon.

Although all these seem a bit far fetched but the domino effect can take place as USA is on its way of freeing more troops from Iraq and disengaging from there. Alas, the ultimate end will be a total destruction of the country called Lebanon…We’ll stay tuned

[Michael J. Totten]

With all due respect, my friend, "war crime" does not mean what you seem to think it means. Dropping a bombon Gaza is an act of war, but it is not a war crime unless a specific convention of war has been violated. I recommend familiarizing yourself with the Law of Armed Conflict.

Here is the first paragraph:

The LOAC arises from a desire among civilized nations to prevent unnecessary suffering and destruction while not impeding the effective waging of war. A part of public international law, LOAC regulates the conduct of armed hostilities. It also aims to protect civilians, prisoners of war, the wounded, sick, and shipwrecked. LOAC applies to international armed conflicts and in the conduct of military operations and related activities in armed conflict, however such conflicts are characterized.

Click the link to read the rest.

[Michael J. Totten]

Sorry, the link got stripped out. Here it is:

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/loac.htm

[maverick]

Well noted AK...
The main concern is the Arab street or the general public...Will they finally see through the recycled Jargon and propoganda of McNasrallah and Co....will they finally understand that resistance is not lobbing rockets into Isreal.
I really doubt it..everyone who is anti this or anti that is cashing in on the resistance movements, pushing the moderates and liberals into the silent sidelines.

[naja]

Well put, AK - and a happy new year to all.

"A different kind of resistance" reminds me of the most frustrating thing about all this, and the real tragedy facing the Palestinian cause today: the fact that the resistance strategy that has been religiously (!) pursued over decades has been proven to be wrong, simply because not one inch of land has been liberated. So do we get a revised strategy? Do we get a SWOT analysis? Do we get an evaluation of results? No. What we do get however, is that the people who have been merchandising all this are doing very well, thank you very much, while their people suffer day in day out. And the tragic irony of it all is that it serves both them and their foes in Israel beautifully. That's symbiosis for you.

[maverick]

Naja,
Nail right on the freakin head!
The Palestinians have been used as cannon fodder for ages, serving the interests of Arab regimes, Despots, religious fanatics,Lefties etc.... They, the leaders, the oraters, regurgitate recycled BS to move the masses massaging their emotions, while they sit in their safehouses.
Fight for Palestine? fight for educating the youth, for employment, for equal rights, for livelihood...this is the only resistance....because theres gonna be a ceasefire soon, and everything will go back to normal....for a while.. until another spark lights it up again, but the difference is Isrealis would have lived and progressed, while in the same period, the Palestinians livelihood would have deteriorated.

[Umm K.]

I find it funny when Americans patronize Lebanese about the definition of "war crimes". I'm sure AK is grateful for the clarification.

[Solomon2]

"don’t count on this region’s inhabitants to lift the Palestinians out of this wretched existence, or see through Nasrallah’s rhetoric."

Certainly not. The bottom line is: in the cause of nationalism or the name of Allah, Arabs fail to oppose tyranny, thus it can grow in their home, villages, and cities, often to their own detriment.

[ali]

Your angst against Nasrallah has overwhelmed your reason to contextualize this conflict and its history.
Neither HA or Hamas existed in ’48, ’56, ’67, ’78, or ’82. And I am not certain that Hamas home-made rockets caused the massacres of Deir Yaseen, Qibyah, Sabra-Shatila, Qana, etc.

All your “another kind of resistance” notwithstanding, you may want to read up on Zionist machinations voiced frequently and unrepentantly by their own leaders that has overwhelmed all feeble efforts on the Arab side.

Hamas has made mistakes, but it is the Palestinians themselves, who created it. In absence of the many failed leftist/secularist and nationalist projects, and any other “…kind of resistance,” they fell to what is familiar to them: their own religion. Until you come up with a national liberation movement that makes sense and brings just redress, you cannot fault the victim for wanting to resist and to affirm his/her humanity.

The fact that they are being massacred is the fault of those who massacre them, and fair blame should also go to those who are watching silently, and yet others who from their own safe and warm homes muster “another kind of resistance” to write that the victims need to reconsider!

And, pray tell us what you think Imam Hussein would have done after hearing Nasrallah’s invocation of Karbala when watching powerless and destitute human beings get pummeled by another cruel and unstoppable power?

[Bad Vilbel]

I personally, don't understand why anyone in their right mind would throw rocks at their much more powerful and always feisty neighbour, and then wonder why they are being attacked.

Not that I'm exhonerating Israel here by any means, for predictably reacting with disproportionate violence. But come on! EVERYONE knows thats' how Israel reacts. EVERYTIME. Why provoke the damned lion time and again? In what way does lobbing Kassam rockets at Israel help the Palestinian cause in ANY KIND OF WAY.

I don't expect the Arab street to see things my way though. Decades of blindly banging their heads against a wall cannot be expected to result in any changed behavior any time soon. It's the same damned thing every single time. Let's lob rockets at them, and then act surprised and offended when they flatten our cities. (Sarcasm) Cause we all know THAT's the way to build a nation, right? (End Sarcasm).

Maybe if we kept our heads down a bit, and focused on our own house, we'd actually earn the respect of others and the right to ask for a damned nation on civilized terms.

Pardon the rant, but this entire episode, just like the 2006 episode, is beyond maddening to me.

[Bad Vilbel]

And as usual, someone comes out with the massacres of '48 and '82 to justify their stupidity.

(begin sarcasm) Because we all know that something that occured 200 years ago is ample justification for retribution today. Boy, am I glad the Germans are still lobbing rockets at the French, and that the Americans are still fuming over King George's taxes. (end sarcasm)

Just admit you're not interested in peace, if that's your logic. Because the countries listed above surely did not attain peace and prosperity by continuing to harp and fight about decades old conflicts. The only way to attain prosperity and peace has always been to look at the CURRENT problem on the ground, with a pragmatic view, and to find a solution TOGETHER.

As long as one or both sides continue to assign blame and go "Well he started it!", there ain't gonna be a solution. And you ain't gonna free Arab lands. And the Palestinians ain't gonna have a nation. And the Arab people will continue to be oppressed and ignorant.

So, if your goal in life is war, a continued oppression and lack of prosperity, then by all means, carry on.

But if you're actually looking for your people to better their lot. To maybe turn into a prosperous successful nation. Then maybe it's time to get off that high horse of stupidity and ignorance.

[naja]

Fat chance, BV. Fat chance.

[Louis-Noel Harfouche]

Funny how uncouth religion-sotted Arabs think they can badger the Jew (or any superior adversary for that matter) then cry foul when they get clobbered half to smithereens. wtf is "proportionality" anyway? Who to hell are you to dictate how a state should or shouldn't react to your provocations? You want war, biaaatches?, you GOT war! Now watcha gonna do about it? Continue to whine (or foam at the mouth like the vermine Nasrallah)?, or fight like true Arabs (i.e. hide behind women and children)?
btw, binnisbé lal "proportionality" thingy, I suppose it's something like Lebanon lying supine while the Palestinians (and their Arab, Arabist, and Islamist cohorts) gnawed at its sovereignty (since 1948), codified their contempt for its sovereignty (1969), and dismantled its institutions (2006). Now THAT'S proportionality. Anything less than that is "disproportional." The Jew has the right to shut up, suck it in, and roll with the punches. THAT'S proportionality!!!
pffft, l3ama wlé!

[Ghassan Karam]

AK, Naja, BV,LNH ...
As you probably all know I agree unequivocally with the frustration and criticism of the policies employed by Hamas. They have been ineffective , harmful and destructive . But so has the Israeli policies .
Both players in this tragedy are destined to act exactly the way that they have acted so far. Both have been driven by the idea that each of them is doing what is best for their side . But the irony is that in this case, hust like the case of spatial duopoly or Prisoners Dilemma, to act rationally for your side is in effect an irrational decision. Game Theory suggests that when a police force picks up at random two innocent piople and accuses them of a crime then each of the suspects , guided by the principle of doing what is best for him/her, will confess to a crime that they did not commit. (Obviously the police has to structure the options in such a way as to make the rationally irrational choice inevitable.
Hamas/Ha/Palestinian Resistance and Israel are not destined to live in the hell that they have created. The present logic of destrucion can be unlocked only under one set of circumstances; both players will have to reject the policy of selfishness and adopt in stead a cooperative posture. It is only then that a sub optimal solution can be replaced by an optimal one. Making that transition, however, is not easyand it would be delusional to think that Hamas is ready for such a transformation that is in essence the antithesis of all what Hamas stands for.Israels quest for peace through military domination is just as wrong headed but is also the rational choice from a purely selfish Israeli point of view.

[maverick]

GK,
you make it sound like each party has control of its own destiny and makes its own decisions. I believe the only thing the leaders of Hamas/Hizbollah have control of, is giving speeches full of propoganda to intice the sheep.
The rest of the planning and decision making comes from the Mullahs of Iran.
As for Isreal, it will keep doing what its doing...what else can it do? sit down and negotiate with its sworn enemy that daily spews its hatred towards the Jews, and professes proudly thats its sole purpose of its existance is wiping Isreal off the map. Now how the hell do you negotiate with that?
I just dont see two ways to this, the place is too small for two huge racist egos.One of them has to go.

[Bad Vilbel]

Ghassan,

As i said in my post, I don't exhonerate Israel one bit. Israel's had her share of overreacting brutally, and stubbornly repeating its mistakes at every turn. But to be honest, discussing Israel doesn't interest me here. Israel is the strong neighbour, with all the weapons and technology. They can afford to bully those who provoke them (as they have done time and again). Good for them. The "Arabs" need to UNDERSTAND THAT as a reality and work around that, instead of continuing to wonder why they react how they react every time a stone is thrown at them.

What concerns me is the Arabs. More specifically Hamas, Hizbullah, and the sympathetic Arab Street. The general populace, who after 60 years of this, still doesn't get it. You are fighting a SUPERIOR enemy. WHY PROVOKE HIM? WHAT DOES THAT ACCOMPLISH?

I'd love to see these people go lion hunting (or some similar activity) simply for the comedy value...It must be pretty comical watching the idiot walk straight into the lion's den, or the bear's cave, with nothing more than a rock in hand (and of course his faith!), getting mauled to bits, and then whining how unfair it all was. Hey idiot! Next time, how about you don't go throwing rocks and taunting the lion?

[ali]

vp,

Your lion analogy, in light of the massacres being perpetrated against a beaten, hungry and shelterless civilians is a little nauseating to say the least.
لا خيل عندك تهديها ولا مال*** فليحسن القول إن لم يحسن الحال
Those who bomb schools, hospitals, ambulances, and mosques with superior force are not lions; they are cowards, and will run away as soon as they meet even a little resistance. Other than their lion-like bombardment , from 20,000 feet in the sky, of residential homes, buildings factories , bridges, etc. in 2006, they were running and screaming like little girls (with my apologies to cute little girls) against a vastly under-armed but fearless group who packed more courage in their fingernails than the paper lions whose virility you like to tout.
And before you tell me and tear your hair out: no I did not not get your point. History is replete with examples of powerless people who eventually came to overpower their oppressors. Already the psychological barrier that was the invincibility of Israel (your own conviction notwithstanding) was shattered two years ago. The powers of resistance are growing, not diminishing. The biggest losers of this latest debacle will be the Arab regimes, specifically the cow that rules Egypt today and Israel. In 20 years time, the Palestinians alone will overwhelm Israel demographically. Zionist Israel, or this racist, brutal entity as it stands today has no future in the Middle East.
I am sure that the Palestinians are sorry to cramp your New Year style (it is their fault after all right?). But maybe if there are less people like you and more like those who are willing to voice their support for the victims, maybe a few hundred million Arabs (and more even non-Arabs), can bring this whole conflict to a speedier and more just conclusion.

[Bad Vilbel]

Way to miss the point. You kinda proved my point for me. When I say "Lion", let's assume i mean that as any kind of inhuman monster, capable of all sorts of atrocities. Isn't that what you're saying?

Why would you continue to throw rocks at an inhuman monster? What do you expect that to accomplish EXCEPT more massacres by said monster?

No one is arguing here about whether the Israeli aggression is inhuman or brutal. I think we all agree that they are. You said it yourself. As did I.

What I am asking you is, why do you provoke the monster if you KNOW it's a monster that's capable of massacres? Doesn't that make YOU the idiot for provoking a monster even though you KNOW it's gonna massacre your people?

And to your history point. Most people who have managed to "overpower" their oppressors, did NOT do so by lobbing rockets and hiding in civilian populations, inviting massacres. Please provide examples to the contrary.

[Louis-Noel Harfouche]

BV, you're pissing in the wind with people like Al. I don't even see the point in trying here.

Al, your drivel reads like something taken straight out of the books of the Arabs' "Nakbahs" and "Naksahs"; attitudes and conceptions of politics and war at great odds with contemporary thinking. Bottom line is that your sad culture is unable to come to terms with its backwardness and face up to it. First you push things to the brink and expect a slap on the wrist from Israel (idk what the Christ you people smoke, but that's pretty much your M.O.) But then when war comes your way--and ahem, war's a bitch dude; ever heard of WWI and WWII??--, but then whe war comes your way, you start whining and complaining of Israel's "aggression" and "ruthlessness" and "disproportionality", oh and "barbarism" and "cowardice"(as if you people are the epitome of civility, civilization and courage, rocketing and hiding like vermine in the midst of civilian populations...) But I suppose that's what you call chivalry and courage in Arabistan.

As one perspicacious Lebanese observer put it a while back (long before there was a Hizbtizi and Hamas), Arabs are so saddled with ancient codes of 'chivalry' and tribal ways of warfare so as to think that fighting means not to unleash weapons "from 20,000 feet in the sky" (as you put it Al), but to fight your enemy with your bare hands (hell, even with your pinkie). wtf is that, Al? What stone ages do you people come from?

Back in the good ole days of 1958 and 1967, an idiotic Jordanian "prime minister" who thought along the same lines as you Al, said something to the effect that "the Israelis know the bravery of the Jordanian soldier when the battle pits soldiers against one another, but when the confrontation is between soldiers and a fire that descends from the skies, how can you even fight?" duh? Is it possible that you people still think in those terms and still expect to face the 21st century (not to mention an adversary that can outwit you in every respect) with dilapidated obsolete notions? Are you people for freaking real? But then again, no expects more from you people (that is, to use Nizar Qabbani's words, "the people who believe in four wives... the people who slay women and womanhood... the people who turn everyone of their village idiots into heros... the people who belive God will grant them victory and withold it from their enemies...) Anyway, you're smart Al, you get the point! But to paraphrase the Duke of Wellington, a culture that believes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, will believe anything.
Godspeed, man, and good luck with life.

[ali]

bv,
By every one’s account, it is Israel who broke this last truce, made incursions into Gaza and killed Hamas members (Nov 4 and 17). There are many sources. Google them. In addition, a vicious blockade had already been in place and tightening the noose on Gaza, suffocating the life of ordinary civilians. That in itself is an act of war.
You need to do some serious history reading. One example that maybe close to your cultural leanings is French resistance during WWII. Check their methods and tactics and the absolute brutality of the Nazi occupiers, at times razing entire villages and killing all their inhabitants in revenge for one episode of resistance in order to persuade the French fighters to give up the fight. Not unlike today’s Palestine. You can substitute Mahmoud Abbas and his Dahlan gang for the Vichy government if you will. You may also want to check how the French resistance dealt with French collaborators after the defeat of the Nazis and you may want draw a comparison with how HA dealt with its Lebanese collaborators after Israel was kicked out of South Lebanon.
There are of course hundreds of similar examples in history. You don’t have to buy many books either. With Google (try Google Scholar) there are many sources which should convince you that what the Palestinians are doing is not unique in history. No better or worse. Same for a foreign occupying power like Israel. Some conflicts take longer than others. History however is on the side of the oppressed. The important thing is that human beings with a sense of justice should always condemn the oppressor and defend the victim.

[naja]

Ali, BV's argument is simply that since you yourself admit that this asymtrical warfare is their means to battle their enemy, by the same token they cannot cry foul when the said enemy retaliates in the way they do. Nothing more, nothing less. Provoke the beast, get the expected overreaction, use overreaction results in the media to gnaw at your adversary. Repeat ad nauseam until everyone gets bored or the demographic bomb actually makes its mark. (Oh and, I forget, claim divine victory at every possible opportunity). In other words, the atrocities committed against one's own civilians are part of the strategy, so in many ways, when I show and advertise my revulsion, I become part of the plan.

Incidentally, and re. the vicious blockade (which had been shamefully ignored by the entire world, btw), allow me to squeeze this little anecdote here: in the 1970s, I was one of many who saw their parents suffer utter humiliation at the hands of the Palestinian gangs who occupied Beirut - believe me we had to queue up for hours just to get a PLO coupon that would allow us to buy bread, or a gas canister or to fill up our cars. At checkpoints we got shot at for going too fast or too slow. Anything we owned was up for grabs, and anyone who didn't like that knew exactly their fate. and meanwhile my own compatriots were being shelled with howitzers by people we harboured as refugees. We had our blockade too, Ali, and it was by none other than the fathers of today's victims. So even though one should never blame the children for the sins of the fathers, I can't help but feel that we often dispense sympathy solidarityand support without the necessary restraint - God forgive me.

[Bad Vilbel]

Ali,

The French resistance did not topple their occupier on their own. They wouldn't have amounted to squat had the allied forces not invaded.

Furthermore, comparing a resistance movement from WITHIN a country is not at all similar to LOBBING ROCKETS INTO YOUR NEIGHBOUR. That is a HUGE difference that I don't expect you to acknowledge or understand. When a people rises up against an occupier, in your OWN country, it's one thing. You have the support of the local population. You ARE the local population.
Lobbing rockets across a border at ANOTHER population is NOT the same thing. I don't know how much more clear I can make this. Hopefully your honest enough with yourself to understand the distinction.

You bring up the siege of Gaza, that started long before the current events. But you're not going far back enough at what started that siege. That siege was itself a brutal RETALIATION by Israel to Hamas. Remember, Israel pulled out of Gaza unilaterally. Instead of rejoicing in the liberation of their land, and engaging in some kind of nation building, what did Hamas do? It immediately started launching rockets at Israel. These are people who do not REALLY understand the concept of resistance or liberation. Resistance and Liberation mean freeing YOUR population from oppression and then BUILDING A NATION. Hamas' ideology calls for "liberating" all of Israel too, not just Gaza and the West Bank. Let's think about that for a second. Instead of liberating YOUR people, what that really means is that you intend to OCCUPY and OPPRESS your neighbour. Just like they did to you. Right? How else would you "free" Israel from the Israelis? Lobbing rockets across the border is pretty emblematic of what Hamas's ideology is here. Hamas is NOT looking at liberating the Palestinian people anymore (or they'd have stopped when Israel pulled out of Gaza). Hamas is now looking at attacking the Israeli people. Right?

After all, there are not many Palestinians in Ashkelon or wherever it is these rockets are landing....What exactly are you "liberating"?

So get off this whole "resistance" and "liberation" high horse. Both Hizbollah and Hamas have PROVEN that even if all their lands are returned, they'll STILL KEEP GOING at Israel. That is NOT the definition of "liberation". Not in any language or dictionary that I am aware of.

[Bad Vilbel]

And right on cue, as if to prove my point for me, I am reading reports of rockets fired from Lebanon onto Israel (and retaliation). Great! Let's start another war in Lebanon too. Let's invite the beast to bomb our schools and bridge from their planes yet again. And then we can complain about how horrible they are.

The biggest failure of the Arab race has got to be the complete inability to learn from common sense and mistakes of the past. That's just gotta be at no.1, if you ask me.

[Mohamad Ali Hassan Hussein]

I am not a Hezbollah or Hamas advocate however, I cant help but notice what drives the arguments and comments some of you post here like this Parisian Phoenician guy Louis-Noel harfoosh, he is reeking with hatred and racism and reminds me of the past days of Lebanese Christian Militias and their disgusting inhumanity, I guess once a racist pig you'll always be a racist pig. (With sincere apologies to pigs)

[Ghawwar Abou-Salim Shushu Basmet Watan Akhwat Shanay]

Genius Mohamad Ali Hassan Hussein says "I am not a Hezbollah or Hamas advocate however..."
Mabrouk Mohamad. Do you want a medal now?

[Mohamad Ali Hassan Hussein]

what do you mean by "you people" tarboosh bayak m3ala2 bi tour-eiffel wala big ben you fuckin twit?

[Mohamad Ali Hassan Hussein]

wlee harfoosh pffff l3ama wlee ma aghbeek

[ali]

bv-The Palestinians are a people still under occupation, whether in Gaza, the West Bank or Jerusalem. Israelis are still building settlements on their land, burning their orchards, stealing their water, evicting them from their homes…They “left” Gaza in ’05 and turned it into an open air prison. Every Human Rights organization has condemned them for it. So you are calling Gaza a “nation?” It has no control over its air, borders, water rights, even their population registry. Israel withheld taxes it collects from them, after Hamas won the elections, and bombed their electric grid and water plants. They have starved them, denied them medical supplies, cut off their water and electricity. This is collective punishment that is against international law. They have every right to keep fighting and we owe to them as human beings at the least to condemn their enemies, instead of, as you keep doing, justify their massacres.

The French were not waiting for any one to rescue them when they began their resistance. They did not even know they would be rescued. It was their duty. Why did they decide that resistance was necessary, even against unbelievable brutality? There are stories that the Nazis would line up and shoot hundreds of innocent French civilians for every German soldier killed by the French resistance. I wonder who this reminds me of. So what would have been your advice to them? As you know, the French resistance fighters are heroes right now. The Vichy government who “accepted” their country’s occupation, and worked with the Nazis are considered traitors and collaborators. Were the French mad? Would you have also railed against the French resistance and excused the Nazis as irrational monsters that cannot be touched? The Israelis keep peddling their superior civilization and rationality to the world, so why don’t you at least take them to task for their hypocrisy and lies?

The Palestinians alone cannot win this fight, so maybe if more people keep condemning the oppressor, and stop blaming the victims, enough outside powers would get the point and come on to provide some balance and get this thing done. But if you keep framing this very simple conflict as being the victim’s fault for resisting then you can’t blame those who are reading your posts as thinking that fellow Arabs (I am not sure how you identify yourself) believe that this is the Palestinians’ fault anyways, so why should we care?

And if you actually believe that this whole Gaza operation is about the home-made Qassam rockets that have killed a dozen Israelis over 8 years, then you need your head examined. By the way, I am sure Hamas would give you all their thousand of Qassam rockets for one f-16 and a couple of the mega-ton bunker-busters Israel routinely drops on residential neighborhoods to kill one Hamas fighter.

Naja-we all suffered under Fatah and their idiotic and destructive leadership. I will spare you the sob stories. They had a virtual rule over us and humiliated many people my family knows. This does not invalidate the Palestinian cause. Had it not been for colonialist Zionists’ land grab of Palestine we would not have had to deal with Palestinians in Lebanon to begin with.

[Ghassan Karam]

Some of you; those with a sense of humour; might enjoy the following which has been making the internet rounds:

A Fly in a Cup

What happens when a fly falls into a coffee cup?

The Italian - throws the cup and walks away in a fit of rage.

The Frenchman - takes out the fly, and drinks the coffee.

The Chinese - eats the fly and throws away the coffee.

The Russian - drinks the coffee with the fly, since it was extra with
no charge.

The Israeli - sells the coffee to the Frenchman, the fly to the Chinese,
buys himself a new cup of coffee and uses the extra money to invent a
device that prevents flies from falling into coffee.

The Palestinian - blames the Israeli for the fly falling in his coffee ,
protests the act of aggression to the UN, takes a loan from the European
Union to buy a new cup of coffee, uses the money to purchase explosives

...and then blows up the coffee house where the Italian, the Frenchman,
the Chinese, and the Russian are all trying to explain to the Israeli
that he should give away his cup of coffee to the Palestinian.

[ali]

The Israeli-rails that the waiter "is bent on exterminating the Jewish people" with the fly, builds a museum to house the fly as proof of the “unique” cruelty against the Jewish people, still keeps the cup, kills the waiter and the immediate staff and takes over the restaurant for “security purposes,” locks the owner of the restaurant without food and water in the kitchen closet and beats him daily until he acknowledges that the restaurant belongs to the Israeli,… invites the Italian, the Frenchman, the Chinese and Russian for a coffee at the restaurant to show them how the screams of the locked –up owner and the occasional things he throws from the closet in protest are disturbing the peace and anguishing the souls of the Israeli’s family who just want to sit down and have a nice, civilized dinner, …convinces the major newspaper culinary editor to give the restaurant five stars despite the disturbing death moans of the locked-up owner….decides he needs to expand his establishment into the next building and he goes there for a cup of coffee (but that’s another joke…)

[danny]

ali,

If I can weigh in…
There’s no dispute that Palestinians are living in dehumanizing conditions…and that Israel is a mighty nation; militarily. We have to look at this from a rational rather than emotional prism.

In this day and age there’s no way your “resistance” will achieve anything but more death and destruction in Israel and Lebanon. Let us not get carried away that Israel TOOK Palestinian land…Most palestinians sold it. This was not only Palestinian land…Please refresh your history …Jews were there before Arafat’s merry men!
Peaceful negotiations, even if it takes decades should be the way to move forward. However, the Palestinian leadership has chosen the path of terrorism sugar coating it as “resistance” ala HA!! I think they are used to the handouts and welfare cheques from UN and Arab countries! When BV made the comparison of the Lion’s den why don’t you get it? What do you think Israel was to do when hundreds of “firecracker Qassams” rained on its people? Build Qassams and sling them back at them? What is this insane idea of proportionality anyways? This is not a case of being punished for speeding! War is hell. We all know…Let’s not live in a mullah’s fancy dreams. Just look around you!
We all agree Palestinian should have a state and Israel has its rights too. The problem here is that Palestinians prodded by Persian fanatic regime think they can get ahead by “resistance”…
Ali just remember that the Hebrew nation suffered a holocaust six decades ago. You do not have the right to tell them how to defend themselves to preserve what they have. If I were a Jew I would not allow any terminal danger to my existence; and yes that includes annihilating any people who’s threatening my existence on this earth (remember Senator Clinton’s response).

So let’s stop the bleeding heart violin concerto! Palestinians had a deal with Barak and rejected it at their own peril! Why do you think in your wildest dreams that Israel would capitulate? They’d nuke anyone challenging their existence. This is a promise you can take to any bank you want! Think again rationally without empty rhetoric…We are sick and tired of it all. It is neither funny nor effective.

Also, let’s refrain from calling each other names or racist just because we disagree…

Gus, a humorous yet a relevant one!

[Bad Vilbel]

One more time Ali, in all caps, so you can maybe read it better:

I AM CONDEMNING THE BRUTALITY OF ISRAELI ATTACKS.

I have stated from the get go that Israel is not devoid of fault here, for handling things in the worst possible way when it comes to Gaza (and Lebanon as well). They too continue to repeat the same mistakes, thinking that they can deter more violence and protect their populace by pounding the living hell out of the Palestinians.

That is NOT what I am debating. That is not the question at hand.

The question at hand is this: How does the Hamas strategy hope to accomplish Liberation of the Palestinian people. I don't see how provoking more brutal repression (which Hamas HAS to know is gonna be Israel's response, because that is ALWAYS how Israel responds, predictably) going to further the cause of the Palestinian people?

It may further the cause of Hamas itself, as a movement. Much like Hizbollah. These militant movements have no reason to exist if there isn't some kind of brutal violence against their people. That is how they justify their existence. But how does this tactic help THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE (not Hamas, not the movement, but the populace at large).

It should be OBVIOUS to anyone in their right mind that provoking Israel will result in death and destruction for PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS (hardly any Israeli civilians ever get hurt). So why do it? Either the Hamas leaders are dumb and expect Israel not to retaliate (i doubt this), or they do this KNOWING FULL WELL that Palestinian lives will be lost - which makes them cynical people, for playing with the lives of the people they claim to want to lead and liberate.

Do you not see the hypocrisy? You can't possibly be that blind.

If you have a dispute with your neighbour. And you know, from past experience, that every time you two fight, he ends up setting your garden on fire, killing your livestock and raping your sister, would you go into his yard and throw stones at his windows? I'd think twice about it, personally. My sister's safety is FAR MORE IMPORTANT to me than whatever tree or fence the dispute may be about.
And if I continue to provoke my neighbour's rage, and watch my sister getting raped every time, then i'm probably not a very good brother.

[Ghassan Karam]

BV
It is rather difficult for those that are close to a problem/circumstance to look at the environment objectively and that is why they cannot see the forest for the trees. Many people, such as Ali, are driven only by the goal and do not ever seem to consider the means. In the real world means do matter, actually they matter a lot. It is not sufficient for me to have a destination but I must at the same time have a credible strategy of getting me there from here. Unplanned and unrealistic goals are the stuff od dreams . Maps and credible means of execution are essential for the fulfillment of all and any journeys. Unfortunately the Palestinian resistance has failed to see that its adopted MO of random violence against non combatants is a recipe for disaster.
As I attempted to say in my very brief comment of yestewrday Hamas and Israel are both acting very rationally. What they need to learn, and both sides have not seen the "light " yet, is that under some circumstances an optimum solutrion requires cooperative behaviour. Allow me to give a simple illustration: A gas station sells gas for say $4.00 per gallon and makes a hansome return. Three miles away ther is a cluster of 4 gas stations that are engaged in a price war and sell gas for $2 / gallon. Why? Simply because each of the four owners thinks that they are doing what is best for himself when in reality each is shooting himself in the foot. There is one way out. The 4 owners should stop acting independently and instaed act cooperatively. Then they will find out that a price war is destructive to their business.
The exact same logic is what determines the Tragedy of the Commons popularized by Garrett Hardin. IN the case of Gaza and Israel, I do not think that the patties to the game are able to see the irrationality of their acts. It will happen eventually but only under duress for both sides. I have been arguing this point for years and I am still convinced that a strong honest broker coupled by a major civil disobedience movement by the Israeli Arabs is the catalyst to brine both sides to their senses. Until that happens, the killing will go on.
I have a 4 minute podcast on this at Ramblings11.mypodcast.com if you have any interst in giving it a listen.

[R]

Folks,

To those of you who are attacking the notion of proportionality, I remind you that when something happens and we find ourselves in the middle of another HA/Israel war, the Israelis have promised to hit the civilian infrastructure of the Lebanese state. In other words, they will make their disproportionate response of last time look like it was peanuts... In our valid criticism of Hamas, we must be careful not to adopt the Israeli media spokespeople lines (especially about proportionality). These lines will be used to justify their next onslaught against Lebanon - which will most likely be provoked by HA.

Conclusion: If you disagree with both sides' inhumane methods of conducting war, and if you disagree with their strategic decisions and if you believe that they are counterproductive to the cause of peace (but not necessarily to each side's unstated goals), you must be careful when phrasing your arguments that you don't fall into the already framed language that both sides use to justify their tactics...

[Bad Vilbel]

R,

There is no such thing as "proportionality" in war. That's just a made notion that idiots appear to be clinging to. War has NEVER been about proportionality. Quite the contrary. The WHOLE CONCEPT of war is based around hurting your enemy so much he can't handle it anymore and surrenders. It's called war. Period. It's a binary matter. It's either ON or OFF. There is no scale of proportionality. There is no such thing as being at "small war" or "medium war" or "big war". It's just WAR, total war. Period.

People need to understand that. And apparently, that notion has not yet sunk in the Middle East.

[R]

Actually BV, I disagree for several reasons. Most importantly, if you were right, Israel which has the ability to wipe Gaza off the map, would. However, they don't because the world would perceive its actions as "disproportionate" :). In other words the notion holds in some sense, perhaps because it appeals at some level to our sense of morality.

Perhaps a better word is reciprocity. In any case, I am not arguing what is right or what is wrong. And neither are you. you are saying that this is the way it is, i.e., war is war. I am saying that when Israel starts pounding electricity installations, roads, bridges, airports and every other civilian property in Lebanon, one of our only defences will be to cry foul. "Proportionality is violated".
Thats just the way it is :). Just like war is war. Call it inhumane, disproportionate, unfair, overly aggressive, etc... The point is that its not right - and it doesn't work. The notion stands...

[Louis-Noel Harfouche]

R, I believe Israel understood back in 2006 that it had responded in the wrong country that summer. Should Hezbo dare open a front in Southern Lebanon this time around (and this is highly doubtful given Nasghalla's contrition and admission that he and his thugs had committed a major blunder back in 2006), you can rest assured that the response will be bi-shaam moo b-Libnaan yaamoo!

Al and the rest, go peddle your "Arab" solidarity refrain elswhere (umm, try Damascus perhaps?).. Lebanon has paid more than its share of the Palestinian bill; ain't swinging this way no more, ladies.. got bigger fish to fry!

[Ghassan Karam]

BV, LNH
I would like to think that most of us would agree that if one insists in putting ones finger in a hive of bees then would should not complain when the bees/wasps sting that individual. But we must also agree that the princviple of propotionality is a time honored concept not only in war but in all aspects of human interaction. No police force will condon shooting repeatedly an unarmed criminal who has committed some petty larceny and no doctor will prescribe two Advils if the examinations reveal a malignant cancer. And no parent will apply the same punishment when a child is say five minutes late in coming home from school as the punishment when that child beats severly his next door neighbour. Actions are expected to be commensurate to the infraction.
The same principle applies to war. A Just war is that which is in self defense, conducted within the confines of the law and where the means applied are propotional to the acts that started the war in the first place. This does not mean that there must be a specific ratio between the deaths on both sides but it does mean that the defenders must use force that is propotional to the initial infraction. If no propotionality is to be applied then are we suggesting that the use of nuclear weapons to settle a border skirmish is acceptable? I hope not. Propotionality is not to be used in order to tie a defenders hand but to limit the choices to the minimum level of violence that would achieve the objective.

[danny]

Gus,

I have to disagree with you on this issue. I am with BV. There cannot be proportionality in a war. With respect your comparisons do not seem to be relevant. It’s like comparing apples to oranges. In a society of laws I do accept that punishment should fit the crime…But this is not the case. Here we have a terrorist group who’s intent on stirring the hornet’s nest with the expectation that the big brother (world community) would deem the Israeli retaliation as a disproportionate or cruel, barbaric…We all get the picture.they do not mind sacrificing their children to “make their point”. The point is if the rockets keep on killing Israeli citizens what’s the available recourse? Capitulate? Send them an invitation for tea at Tel Aviv’s Marriott (pardon the sarcasm)?
I agree with the conclusion of your comment though that…
”Propotionality is not to be used in order to tie a defenders hand but to limit the choices to the minimum level of violence that would achieve the objective.”

After seeing Hamas initiating the attacks and not renewing the truce, I think Israel is acting more than “proportionally” to achieve its objective!

Great Podcast as usual.

[Louis-Noel Harfouche]

GK, I'll have to second Dan's emotion here too. There's nothing such as proportionality when a state is exercising its national prerogatives (especially as concerns an outside threat--a non-state actor to boot--NOTORIOUS for hiding among civilian populations on BANKING on high civilian casualties to trigger the world's sympathy etc..) Proportionality in this case is analogous to abdication. Had Lebanon not abdicated (i.e practiced proportionality) in '69 and '75 when it came to the Palestinians, we would not have been shoveling sh*t these past 40 years. NOBODY should be able to dictate to a sovereign state what does and does not constitute an existential danger! Do you think the Palestinians of '69 were NOT an existential danger to Lebanon? Do you think Hezbollah is not today? Hafez el-Assad's Homsis napalmed my neighborhood back in '78 when the LAF were whipping his ass in the Fiyyadiyyé battle! He massacred upwards of 20 thousand Syrians in Hama a couple of years later. I didn't hear any Arabs raise so much as a whimper about proportionality then. What's up with that? Enough said!

[naja]

danny, LNH, you both have a poiht, but a slightly tenuous one. In fact it is the result of accepting pseudo-realities that are so typical of the Bush era. I am no Hamas fan, as anyone here knows. Indeed I think they, like HA are the worst type of kneejerk populist crap that only backwards religious fervor can produce. However, an article by Robert Fisk brought me back to the centre (where I tend to belong) and to my deep-seated belief that Israel is run by murderous dimwits whose claim of being a civilised nation is an insult to intelligence. He reminded me that, when the IRA (not exactly your "state actor") targetted civilians in the UK - and with far more casualties than Hamas caused, mind you - Her Majesty's government did not send in the RAF. Had they gone 'disproportionate", they would have played in their foes' hands. I have been vilified by many for arguing that the US should not have attacked Afghanistan in retaliation for 9/11. I stand by that. Had it remained above such a vengeful approach, it would have avoided being dragged into the low level at which its enemy operates. Instead, it did, and with disastrous consequences. Just imagine if it had shown the right level of restraint. Then apply the same to Israel. In my humble opinion, neither al-Qaida would exist today, nor would Hamas. Discuss.

[maverick]

But dont you think its a little different in regards to Hamas and its purpose. The IRA is not bent on the destruction of its nieghbour, it wants independance...same as Basque seperatists, Tamil tigers et al. Hamas is quite different, along with the Islamic fundamentalist groups echoing statements of hatred. " wiping Isreal off the map", " Kill the Jews" etc.. Theres not much room for negotiations....add to that, they are right on the Isreali border lobbing rockets on civilians.
I dont think theres a comparison in the world. Americas attack on Afghanistan was just plain ludicrous.It wasnt proven that it was the work of the Taliban that orchestrated 9/11. The Taliban is not sitting on the US border lobbing rockets on civilians, constantly, ( perhaps as much as thousands of rockets into Isreal during that 6 month cease fire).
As much as it pains me, seeing death and destruction especially in Palestine....Im even more outraged and disgusted at those sacrificial Priests"like HA are the worst type of kneejerk populist crap that only backwards religious fervor can produce."

[danny]

naja,

Respectfully I disagree with Fisk's analogy as well as your conclusion regarding the non-existance of Qaeda...Again as far as the Israeli response is concerned I do not want to repeat what I have said above.
As for IRA...come on now how can you compare? Daily rocket attacks...annihilation of Israel...Iranian $$$$...etc..etc...(see Maverick)

As for the USA and other targets...Al Qaeda had attacked USA numerous times before Sep 11th my friend...See attached:
http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/033104.pdf
Also,notice that there has been no attack on American soil since the invasion of Afghanistan...I trust the world intelligence services in this case are in better loop than you and I...and more specifically Mr. Fisk!

[Louis-Noel Harfouche]

Hmm, I dunno! Fisk, Naja? That's interesting! It's like brandishing Edward Sa'id for the state of Middle East Studies in the academy; a guy whose work has been described as "malignant charlatanry in which it is hard to distinguish honest mistakes from wilful misrepresentations." It seems to me that this sums up Fisk's shoddy "journalism" pretty accurately too; nothing but bluster, falsehoods, abuse, dogmatism, and ommissions.

[Ghassan Karam]

BV, LNH, Danny ...
The last thing that I want to do is to become dogmatic about an issue and then proceed to discuss it to death. But in this case I feel that I should give my view one more post:-) (As if that is gonna help).
Anyway, I ,just like Naja, have been an opponent of HA, Hamas and their ilk forever, as the regular readers of these blogs know. Yet I submit that proportionality is an extreemly important concept of justice. It is the foundation upon which the idea of a just war rests. It is one thing to argue that the IDF has not violated the principle of proportionality but it is a totally different thing to deny its existence. No less of a supporter of Israel than Alan Dershwitz ,of Harvard fame ,has argued on the pages of the WSJ that the IDF has not violated the proportionality idea and that to interpret proportionality as a strict death ratio is wrong. Note that he comes to the defense of the IDF but does not deny the principle behind morality, conduct of war and the Geneva conventions.
I believe that the following quote from the Fog of War as spoken by Robert McNamarra ( not Edward Said or Fisk:-)) is very apropo:

"McNamara's comment on the bombing was this: LeMay said that "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." "And I think he's right," says McNamara. "He, and I'd say I, were behaving as war criminals." . . . "LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side has lost. But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?"

[Seraph]

As an Israeli-American, I have to say that I agree with GK's point that we can debate whether or not the Israeli response is proportionate or not without sacrificing the principle of proportionality. I admit that I say this partially out of self-interest. After all, if you sacrifice this principle then what's to keep the Iranian mullahs from arguing that dropping a nuke on Israel is perfectly proportionate? (Not that they give a fart about such social niceties.)

As to the actual case of Gaza (or Lebanon in 2006) I would say to all those who like morbid mathematics (you know, the ones that say "x # of Palis vs only y # of Israelis died") that this approach conveniently removes intentionality. The fact that people have died as a result of Qassams and Grads means that those shooting them know full well that they can be lethal. As such the fact that only a few Israelis have been killed is not for a lack of attempts on the part of those firing rockets. Over 6,000 attempts to be precise. (And this is without even getting into the economic and psychological consequences of living under constant shelling.)

While there is certainly no schadenfreude on my part when I see or hear of dead Palestinians in Gaza, I also do not yet feel that Israel's response has been anywhere near disproportionate. Of course, this may change depending on how this all plays out.

Nonetheless, I think that LNH makes a good point that the examples of '69 and '75 in Lebanon show that there is also a real cost to not disproportionately kicking ass. Similarly, one could recall that the inconclusive end of WWI (Germany was not occupied) led to WWII (where the doctrine of unconditional surrender prolonged the war, but ensured a long era of peace.)

As for Ali's "narrative" of the events that led up to this mess, I would like to point out that Gaza was meant to be a test case and not the end all. The lefties in Israel said that if only we took a chance instead of resorting to force, that we would be repaid with peace. That Gaza would be the first stage and then the West Bank would follow etc. etc.

Frankly, I am not really sure why this was even contemplated after it was painfully clear that a similar unilateral and complete disengagement from southern Lebanon did not yield any peace dividends, but I guess hope reigns eternal. Almost immediately AFTER Israel disengaged, the rocket fire from Gaza intensified. It was not long before Fatah members were being thrown of roofs and Hamas began doing everything in its power to escalate and force confrontation.

The notion that Israel brought this on itself because it "continued the occupation" is clearly the product of a misconception on the part of Ali and others. Israel was not routed and forced to leave Gaza, but rather took a gamble and CHOSE to do so. That is why they held on to the keys when they left. If the Palestinians had considered answering peace with peace, then by now they would probably have control of their borders.

While it is true that in November Hamasniks were killed by the IDF, yet Ali fails to mention that they were digging a tunnel towards the border fence - one that was suspiciously like the one used to capture Gilad Shalit. After that they called off the tahdiya and intensified their rocket fire. Of course, now that they finally have what they clearly wanted they are whining like babies about the consequences.

How does one say, "If you play with the bull, deal with the horns" in Arabic?

[danny]

One more question before we beat this horse dead...Was the bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki disproportionate use of force?...or going back to what Gus had concluded above:"”Propotionality is not to be used in order to tie a defenders hand but to limit the choices to the minimum level of violence that would achieve the objective.”
Was that a minimum force; in retrospect?? If the war had not ended it could have costed millions of more lives...?
Just asking. Not condoning!

[danny]

Here's an interesting analysis which supports my thesis (first post) why Hamas has started this "war"...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090109.wcoessay0110/BNStory/specialComment/home

[R]

Danny, what do you think ? was the bombing of 2 cities and the tens if not hundreds of thousands of death disproportionate ? After all, it brought Japan to its knees and it substituted military deaths on both sides of the conflict with civilian ones. But is it an acceptable price? When is it no longer an acceptable price ? Spare me man. What if you had been a civilian there, or your family? Are you gonna tell me that the Hiroshimans should have overthrown the emperor and because they didn't they are complicit?

To be honest, who cares? We use the concept of proportionality as a surrogate for acceptability. But it becomes irrelevant when certain things are not acceptable regardless. In my opinion nuking civilians is unacceptable. Regardless. Heck call me a peacenick lol.

Moreover, lets go back to the other part of Gus's McNamara quote. Had the Americans lost the war, wouldn't they have been treated as war criminals for the nukes?

[R]

Seraph, I submit to you that I unconditionally reject Hamas's methods and ideology wholesale. However, you have to agree that regardless of their deadly intent, the Hamas rockets are stone age tools. My question is do they warrant the onslaught unleashed on Gaza? (Excuse the ugly example, but) I am sure more Israelis die in car accidents in a week or a month than with Hamas's stupid rockets in the last few years. So again, do they warrant the onslaught unleashed on Gaza?

But in the interest of honest discussion, let me address a couple of your comments:
"(And this is without even getting into the economic and psychological consequences of living under constant shelling.)" , what about the economic and psychological consequences of living under constant embargo, and the current bombing of Gaza? The point is that both sides dehumanize the other and treat them with impunity. The logic stems from , 'if you do this then you deserve that. Or if you do this then I have a right to do that'... ad nauseam. It leads nowhere. Both sides have legitimate concerns. And both sides use inhumane methods against the other...

"Nonetheless, I think that LNH makes a good point that the examples of '69 and '75 in Lebanon show that there is also a real cost to not disproportionately kicking ass."

Lebanon in 69 and 75 is not Israel in 2008/9. Hamas does not exist in Israel proper in massive numbers nor does it threaten the existence of the state of Israel (not because they don't want to but because they can't). Moreover, Lebanon in 69 and 75 had large chunks of the Lebanese population that supported the Palestinians... Cracking down on them in the way that LNH wants may have just hastened the civil war... but that is a completely different topic.

"Similarly, one could recall that the inconclusive end of WWI (Germany was not occupied) led to WWII (where the doctrine of unconditional surrender prolonged the war, but ensured a long era of peace.)"
Very questionable analysis there. You are disregarding the economic crisis and the humiliation of Germany... But more importantly, what are you advocating here? the total surrender of Hamas? or of all the palestinians? and how do you intend to accomplish that? Unless this incursion/war goes on for weeks and months to come and/or Gaza is flattened along with its civilians, I am not sure that the surrender/defeat of Hamas will happen. Is Israel willing to commit to the casualties it will incur to achieve that? can it withstand the internal and external pressure on it to stop?

To be honest, I am feeling more and more that this war is going to end in a similar manner to the 2006 war. In other words, Israel buys a few years of peace. At the same time it strengthens the internal hand of Hamas against the other local players as it did with HA in Lebanon... Also, Mahmoud abbas's term is ending soon (if it hasn't already). It is totally unpredictable who will win the next election and I am not sure how the world will handle a PA lead by Hamas.
I know that many of you guys will disagree with me, but its appearing more and more like this whole thing is an exercise in futility. What a waste of human life...