Death squad, Aoun delay cabinet formation

The Future Movement has reportedly withdrawn from consultations on the new cabinet pending action against a rumored death squad that is targeting its supporters in Beirut.

The death squad apparently includes member of Berri's "parliamentary police". Yesterday, four gunmen from that squad opened fire on FM supporter Imad Zaghloul in the Jneh neighborhood. 

Zaghloul's father, Mohammed, said in a television interview that members of Parliament police opened fire at his son. He identified by name two officers of the Parliament police allegedly involved in the attempt on his son's life.

Mohammed Zaghloul also claimed that he has been receiving death threats from Parliament police officers.

Security sources said four gunmen shot and wounded Zaghloul near the Kuwaiti embassy in Beirut's Bir Hassan district late Tuesday.

The sources said two men in civilian clothes and another two wearing Parliament police uniforms and driving a black X5 BMW approached Zaghloul and opened fire on him, wounding him in several parts of his body.

Police found that the car plates belonged to Lama N.J., wife of Mohammed B., residents of the Shiyah neighborhood. (Naharnet)

Now Lebanon quoted "Well-informed sources" as saying that the incident was part of a campaign to liquidate anti-Hizbullah citizens.

“There seems to be a death squad targeting people based on a list of names. It is a continuation of the military operations carried out by Hezbollah in Beirut and the Mountain, and is aimed at ‘besieging’ regions where MP Saad Hariri has influence, in the hope of deterring residents there until the legislative elections are held,” the source said. (Now Lebanon)

PM-designate Fouad Siniora called for "necessary measures":

Prime Minister Fouad Siniora has called on the Interior Minister and the Defense Minister to take the necessary measures to bring to justice the perpetrators of aggressive acts against citizens, in violation of civil peace. He also called for setting up a procedure for liaising with people who are threatened and [assaulted], amid reports of a number of citizens being followed or finding themselves under surveillance by some partisans. (Now Lebanon)

Hariri is reportedly asking for an Arab fact finding mission to investigate the security breaches and make sure the security component of the Doha agreement is implemented before proceeding with the consultations.

In other obstacles to the cabinet formation, Aoun is not budging on his demand to have five ministries to himself-- more than the president's share.

Meanwhile, Al-Seyassah reported that the news of an upcoming visit by Bashar Assad to Lebanon is mere wishful thinking, especially in what concerns establishing diplomatic relations. The Kuwaiti paper said Assad will not visit the country before Suleiman visits Syria (something that is expected to happen after swearing in the new cabinet, according to Syrian rag a-Watan). The paper adds that Bashar fears the visit could lead to street protests by March 14 supporters.

That's if the death squad doesn't get to them first.

Comments

[Shunkleash]

"He also called for setting up a procedure for liaising with people who are threatened and [assaulted], amid reports of a number of citizens being followed or finding themselves under surveillance by some partisans."

Partisans Fouad? What partisans? Are we in nazi occupied France? People who follow you around, listen in on your conversations, and generally try to kill you at every turn are "partisans"? Im sorry you [deleted]! They are called "criminals"! can you say "criminals"? Or is it that you don't want to hurt anyones feelings...[deleted]! By the way a man with balls would not "call" on the minister to do something...he will fucking well TELL THE MINISTER to do something!!! Oops, sorry i forgot...we are all unified now, no winner no loser, only half idiots and whole morons.

UNIFY THIS!

AK: Shunkleash, we love you, but had to remove the profanities. :)

[AK]

Shunkleash, your language! :(

[danny]

Death squads, HA and Amal goons, mafia style intimidation that would’ve made Capone proud!! The HA goons are itching for further escalation since the Doha Accord’s “sell” as a victory has not work out…The bullying is in preparation for elections (if they happen) and a reminder to the Beirutis that HA maggots are still there!!

All this stinks of a Syrian/Persian tactic of more extortion. It seems a simple stalling of the formation of the government. At the end of the day if the Orange can not be boosted, the elections is formally lost for him now (he’ll end up losing it either way). I have to attach the link of an article in Tehran Times again…http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=170063

One thing I’m wandering about; WHY the hell does Saniora has to contact ISF/LAF leaders to take care of the security? Aren’t they supposed to do that? Isn’t that their job and duty?

As for the butcher’s visit and diplomatic ties, etc…Come on guys we should know better than pay attention to As Safir rag or some Kuwaiti “inquirer”…Bashar will not cede Lebanon. They gave us “Slyman” to buy time. NOTHING HAS CHANGED…

[ghassan karam]

Please do not say here we go again. I will restrain myself and just ask for the umpteenth time to ask Mr. Saniora to take a long and well deserved vacation. A free democratic Lebanon just cannot afford him anylonger.

[ankhfnkhonsu]

Interesting article by Michael Young:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=5&article_id=92744

If he is right, all of this is going to accelerate.
The future is grim, all over middle east, and that future is a very near future.
Maybe you don't get the summer off, after all.

[Charlie]

Guys stop talking about Siniora like he wields any power, and the same argument could be made about the “Commander in Chief” the great savior Prez Suliman.
When the government is not capable in protecting the citizen’s life and properties then the citizens need to do it themselves.

I know most of you guys don’t want to hear this, but in Lebanon you gotta have your own militia to cover your rear end and protect yourself. The Syrians have made sure that only one sect is armed to the teeth and continue to do so. Harriri is not doing Lebanon any favors by turning the Sunni into a passive community in the land of thugs. M14 Christians are not doing Lebanon any favors when Amal and HA charges into Beirut and they see this is as a Sunni-Shia conflict and decide to watch it from a distance and continue to issue statements. If M14 has any hope in hell to stop HA from their continuous acts of terrorism they must unify into a single fighting force. At the end of the day HA has shown they understand only one language and that is force.
Forget the democracy and all that idealistic stuff, this is Lebanon a land of tribes, there is no government or council of ministers, this is a tribal council and will serve everyone best if it is treated for what it is.

[Bad Vilbel]

Here we go again! (hehehe, Ghassan)

No seriously. I can't say I'm surprised. I've been repeating over and over that Doha accomplished absolutely nothing. This is proof positive.

Elections, new cabinets, all that is useless as long as there is no rule of law. What's the point of having elections?

[ghassan karam]

Ankhfnkhonsu,
Why would you find the Young article interesting when only 10 days ago he painted quite a different picture? Is it time to ask the real Young to stand up?

[Charlie]

BV,

Totally agree, no point of fooling ourselves into elections that will be orchestrated under the gun and votes are caste by a bunch of terrorized citizens. The whole thing is a farce a big fat lie and I have no idea why the Lebanese keep on perpetuating it.

[ankhfnkhonsu]

Ghassan:

You may well be right about Young. Perhaps he is as confused as a lot of people.

However, I do believe he is right on this time.

[maverick]

Youngs latest article reveals that the author works for some intelligence agency.His points are so intricate and interwoven from macro to micro politics. I love his articles,but this time i was like wtf? but it does get better the more you read it over.lol.
I believe Saniora called them Partisans and not criminals as an exercise in politically correct newspeak. Criminals are any thug off the street,partisans belong to a group.The old sly devil was hinting.
Charlie,Id love to come out with that,and finally put an end to this fiasco,but since we are upholders of the state and democracy and what not,then were obliged to ,believe in our army and the security forces as the only force to protect the state and its citizens.I know they suck, but arming civilians and countering Hizbo leads to a massive catastrophe.Fingers will be pointed,saying," see,didnt i tell you,they werent for Lebanon,theyre leaders are murderers and always will be"...and guess whos waiting to step in and save Lebanon,yet again?

[Charlie]

Maverick,

HA has been counting on M14 to claim the moral high ground while they carry on grabbing and adding more land to their mini-state. Today M14 keep on claiming they are behind the State, but time and time again the State institutions fail to deliver. These institutions have been gutted from any loyalty to the Lebanese project so how can they ever stand up and protect the citizens. People will only take so much punishment before they take matters into their own hands. This is something Harriri better be sensitive about, his influence will only go so far but at the end people want some security, and my fear is that they will turn to horrible alternatives out of necessity.

[danny]

Gus,

I disputed MY's analysis than and I disagree with this too. i have a feeling that MY has fallen into the qareat el fajan union's trap.

All the bull crap of a regional deal that was salivated about ten days ago seem to be a dream...

Everyone is looking out for their interests except the poor Lebanese suckers who find happiness in any ray of sunshine...

today, I heard the HA spokesman jackass Mousawi (who seem sto be on Jenny craig diet), blame the 'others" for asking for it... He so much so said they expect the other side should appologize to them!!!

Now you get it? I just hope McCain Wins and lives up to his own rhetoric. Live by the sword die with the sword!

[ghassan karam]

Danny,
There are many of you on this blog who seem to pin your hopes on a McCain victory. That is as likely as my seeing a budding democracy in Lebanon as a result of Doha:-) Personally, as you well know, I was one of the first to wonder "what are we celebrating" and unfortunately I am becoming more convinced that one more time we have chosen to settle for a band aid when the wound is deep and requires much more radical surgery.

[danny]

Ghassan,

I am pinning any hopes on McCain. However, as Lebanese seem to be like stray dogs for everyone to kick around as they wish, I'd rather have a radical non compromising president in USA than a Barrack who thinks he can cure the ills of the world by his empty rhetoric! We’ve all heard his kind of talk before...This is nothing new.

I have not celebrated any victory to speak of. However, my assertion has been that HA is running on fumes...Bush is almost history. If HA and its mentors think McCain can be better, they are hedging their bets on a losing proposition. Although I like Osama, I do not believe in dreamy crap!

As for democracy in Lebanon,
Gus, you and I know that is not possible as far as a party owns guns and the other grovels....

[Charlie]

Danny,

"As for democracy in Lebanon,
Gus, you and I know that is not possible as far as a party owns guns and the other grovels...."

More to the point there will never be a democracy in Lebanon as long as there are Lebanese living in Lebanon...:-)

[R]

2 things about the McCain-Obama detour debate. The first and obvious thing is that it is less important who is in the white house than how we manage our own affairs.

Being on planet earth and in the real world, who is in the white house is also important. To those of you who discount Obama as dovish, a disaster to Lebanon and so on, I would like to remind you that he is a shrewd politician who is still honing his message. Another factor to take into consideration is perception. If he is perceived as weak when it comes to tough foreign policy, he may over-compensate with hawkish policies. The same is true for McCain who will be keen not to be seen as Bush the 3rd and could therefore underplay his hands and play dovishly.

Public perception, shaping public perception, and reaction to public perception are big factors in what guides politics in democracies... Just saying, don't take things at face value.

[Sydney2008]

Hello everyone

I found this article from alssyassa uplifting. I am not sure about the reliability of the source but the article talks about the american conspiracy against the iranian project in lebanon
http://www.alseyassah.com/news_details.asp?nid=17681&snapt=الدولية

[Shunkleash]

Maverick,

"I believe Saniora called them Partisans and not criminals as an exercise in politically correct newspeak. Criminals are any thug off the street,partisans belong to a group.The old sly devil was hinting."

I am not surprised if your assessment is correct. Over the last couple of months I have made my own assessment->Lebanon appears to have invented political correctness...hence why it and every other country that employs this "mantra" is in (or moving towards) becoming a toilet...you get my unified drift?

With that said it still does not absolve the weeping willow from doing what he is supposed to do...LEAD DAMNIT!!!! It is this constant song and dance, flower power, lovey dovey, no winner no loser, all hail the resistaines, can't call Berri a traitorous dog bullshit which has led us down this ruinous road.

I need a smoke...

peace

p.s. AK you brutish censor you!:-) I will tone it down and remember my manners.

[Solomon2]

I've been afraid of this ever since it was reported that Hezbollah collected detailed reports on its political opponents when it took over their offices last month. So the car bombings appear to have died with Mugniyah, but now it's the sectarian policemen one has to worry about.

March 14 has obviously missed its window of opportunity to act without fear of assassination. Unless action is taken quite promptly against these gunmen, don't you think that ordinary M14 folks will always live in fear that they could be shot while out walking, or maybe burned to death inside their homes at night? And if these things start to happen, what will you do about it? And if the answer is you won't do anything, how will the other side respond to your passivity?

[Bad Vilbel]

Needless to repeat (but I do anyway): Doha is and always was a band-aid that fails to address the cancerous tumor killing this patient.

I remember posting some angry rant, the day of Doha (something along the lines of "you guys go ahead and sing your Kuluna lik watan and celebrate on martyr's square, but absolutely NOTHING has changed"). Those words seem to be ringing truer every day, now that the exhuberance of having a president is starting to die down and the real issues are resurfacing.

[maverick]

It really bothers me how people pin the consequences of the future on a presidential candidate. Unlike the Middle East,with its One man party,and despotic dictatorships, The West and the US in particular, Does not rely on the President for Political engineering and policy making. It doesnt matter who takes over the white house, the same policies are in the woodworks, from the Thinktanks,specialists,intelligence services,lobbyists,and currents of thoughts and trends.
We all know this, but do the dictators know? It seems they are anticipating a whole new era with these elections. Well,reality is going to bite them in the Ass...for all Obamas dovish pro diplomacy talks,thats just BS in line with his "Change" platform, to garner support for his elections. Yesterday infront of an American-Isreali lobby AIPAC, Obama called for full support of Isreal,and get this, Jerusalem will not be divided,and shall be Isreals capital, to the thunderous roar of a zionist crowd. In addition, he called for Nuclear disarmement on Iran.Obviously he needs contributions to his campaign against Mcain.
Whatever the Political newspeak the Electorates are using, it doesnt matter,These figureheads are just prettyfaces.

[ghassan karam]

No form of government anywhere in the world is close to being perfect , each of them has its own warts. Yet it is instructive to note how some societies are governed much more than others by the rule of law.
The civilian Secretary of Defense in the US fired on the spot the two highest ranking official in the US Air Force without having a single person question his authority to do that. Back on the farm, when the full cabinet voted unanimously to reassign the person in charge of airport security all hell broke loose, the government had to rescind its orders and it is acting in a care taker capacity. Quite a contrast wouldn't you say?

[bad vilbel]

Indeed Ghassan, indeed.

And I don't see that changing anytime soon. The problem is, in my opinion, cultural and endemic.

Folks like to blame our inept politicians, but the truth is that not many people, at the street level, in Lebanon, seem to grasp the difference you just pointed out. It's the Lebanese mentality.

It's no coincidence, in my mind, that most of us who "get it" are Lebanese living abroard, in countries where we're exposed to the way things work within the framework of law and order and civility.

[danny]

Lebanese thinking...

I was visiting Lebanon 8 years ago. The main streets ("highway") were recently divided into lanes by Italian engineers...when I asked the sweet lady that was driving me around why they were not driving in the lanes her answer was instead of cars going in three lanes they could fit five...She thought I did not get it!! In their way of life they thought they are smarter and I was a dummy. I tried to explain that the traffic congestion was mostly because of the habhazard driving; she gave at me an even "weirder" look.

You see in"lebanese" way of thinking logic is optional..

[bad vilbel]

Funny story, Danny. But also sad and very telling.

Forget about trying to build a modern and functional state. There really is no point, is there? The problem is cultural.

And the Lebanese have always had this bizarre delusion that we are "smarter" and "craftier" than the rest of the world. Based on what accomplishments? I don't quite know. Your story illustrates this fact, yet again.

Not much is going to change until the Lebanese mentality and superiority complex goes away.

Sometimes, I want to grab random Lebanese people on the street by the shoulders and scream at them: "If you're so damned smart, why is it your country is constantly mired in war? Why is it you haven't put a man on the moon yet? or accomplished anything significant as a people since the invention of the alphabet or whatever that dumb accomplishment 5000 years ago that everyone is so proud of?"

You'd think that someone would think those Italian engineers must have had a REASON for putting in three lanes. Maybe those people, who actually have engineering degrees and the knowledge of applying it in Italy, where shit actually WORKS, might know a thing or two over Abu Abed!

God are the Lebanese frustrating! I need a drink!

[Linda]

BV: For being so discussted by the Lebanese and their way of thinking, and so happy for having left the country u surely spend enough time blogging on Lebanese bloggs about Lebanese issues with your other Lebanese peers. So I am going to guess here and say you have not given up, completely, yet. While having this drink I hope you will not be analyzing and bitching even more about the same status of affairs. Frankly I like our cool "laisser faire laisser aller" attitude while driving. You expect the other driver to make an unexpected turn at an unexpected time and therefore you are always on high alerte, hence less deadly accidents. And when you do have an accident you don't need to hire a lawyer or go to court or worry about a hike in your insurance payments. "bassita shabeb hadid be hadid " is the best sentence one can hear after a fender bender. But hey maybe I am among the general mass population who doesn't "get it" like you'all fancy expats do.

[ghassan karam]

BV, Go and see the short video clip about the Zaghloul affair on Blacksmiths blog. See it and weep because it is an indictment of the whole society pure and simple. One side act as thugs and criminals while the other demands protection , not from the government but from the clan leaders.
A freind of mine described to me in detail what took place ten days ago. When some of the Future supporters threw a stone on the HA thugs who were in cars and motorcycles the gang stopped and went back to where the stone was thrown from and very casually threw hand grenades at the group of people and then continued on their merry way as if nothing has happened. What is going on, someone throws in anger a piece of stone that does not hurt anyone and the retaliation is two hand grenades!!! What has become of us?

[ghassan karam]

Linda,
I want to make sure that I understood your last post. Are you saying that in order to reduce highway fatalities and car accidents in general then we should not use highway design principles, abolish the need for insurance , don't require drivers to be licensed and transform the roads into a car derby? Why didn't I think of that? Did you know that we have in Lebanon one of the highest rate of car accidents in the world and also a very high fatality rate due to car accidents?

[Bad Vilbel]

I guess as long as it's "Hadid bi hadid" it's all good, Linda.

I just hope you or one of your loved ones doesn't get seriously hurt one day, by some jackass who happens to be disobeying a street sign or light and who happens to also be carrying a gun and decides that he wants to settle the matter using said gun rather than resorting to lawyers.

You might be singing a different tune if that were to happen.

I lived in Lebanon for 20+ years. I've seen what this laisser faire attitude got us. Sure, you pick the one example where no harm no foul is done, no one's hurt, and the 2 parties to the accident are agreeable enough to let it go. But there are countless examples where people get actually hurt, where the other party refuses to take any responsibility (or pay medical bills) because they are "connected" or have a gun or two in their trunk.

I've been pulled over at gunpoint, in my youth, on my way to take a final at AUB, and forced to give some gentlemen a ride from Ras Beirut to Jbeil (yes, Jbeil!) thus missing my final for no other reason that I didn't happen to be connected or have a gun myself.

My father's been pulled out of a car at gunpoint by militiamen because of his last name (not uncommon) and we were lucky to get him back because one of the abductors, in his "laisser faire" decided to have mercy and let him go. Others were not so fortunate.

Not too long ago, Abu Kais' parents had to leave their home because HA's thugs decided in their "laisser faire" to attack Shweifat.

I WISH we had legal recourse to lawyers, to a judicial system and to the protection of the police, like in civilized countries. No system is perfect, and sure, overly litigious societies like the US can show abuses of the system, but it works for 99% of the populace, and things are done in a civilized fashion, with no recourse to guns.

I'm sure you think you're better than the rest of the world, with your "hadid bi hadid", but you're not.

If i were a brute, I'd have responded to your comment with a big fat "fuck you" (sorry for the profanity, AK). But I'm not. Unlike those thugs you seem to like living amongst so much. Consider yourself lucky that I'm not one of those who would come find you and throw a grenade at your house (as per the story mentioned above). Oh yeah, and if someone threw a grenade at your house, I bet you'd be WISHING you had a lawyer to turn to then.

[Linda]

Didn't realize what i wrote would make anyone want to throw a grenade at my house BV. Thugs or better than thugs. Don't see why the f$#% word should be used either whether u r civilized or a brute. And why do u assume that me saying "hadid be hadid" makes me think I am better than thee. And Ghassan can't you tell sarcasm from seriousness from the tone of the text? Sorry folks might want to lighten up a bit. BV have a second round on me.

[ghassan karam]

I just read a preview of an story that is to be published tomorrow /today by the German Magazine Die Welt. The story is to affirm that Assif Shawkat and 100 other inteligence officers were planning a coup against Bashar Assad but that Imad Moughanieh learned about the plot and informed Bashar. The story goes on to say that this is why Moughanieah was killed and why Shawkat has not been seen for months.
I find the above explanation very believable especially regarding the assassination of Moughanieh. It is for the first time that I find myself accepting the rationale for Imad Moughanieh's death , for the disappearance of Shawkat. But yet no one knows whether Shawkat is under arrest or whether he has been eliminated and if so whether that is connected to the Hariri international tribunal. Just some food for thought.

[R]

Ghassan, today's Almustaqbal, with whatever credibility (or lack thereof) that it carries, claims that Bashar is willing to trade the 4 lebanese generals + a high ranking syrian officer (Shawkat) for letting the tribunal go thru. Now I am not sure how this is a trade, since it assumes that Bashar has control over the tribunal and has something to trade... The rationale is that this trade is acceptable to Bashar now, since he has managed to sideline Shawkat and his people which makes the latter a perfect scapegoat. The link to Maghnieh's assassination is also made, and Khashan claims that the results of the investigation into Maghnieh's killing will be linked to the Hariri investigation results and delayed until then...
Seems to me that this is more or less in-line with what you mentioned about Die Welt...
Interesting, but I still think we should take any news regarding the inner workings of the Syrian regime extremely cautiously.

Cheers,
R

[Helen]

I thought Moughniyeh's death was related to a high Iranian security official who defected to the states?

[Sydney2008]

R,

It seems plausible for Assad to try to trade the lebanese officers and shawkat for his own safety...but the question is to what extent the international tribunal is politicized to allow a criminal (and not any criminal a head of state) to run away unpunished. On the other hand, what will prohibit these accused officers from revealing the truth?

[Andre]

Ghassan,

You know too well that HA preaches and practices a culture of violence and hatred at every turn and opportunity that they have. Their leaders have no decency or interest in civilizd behavior whatsoever as we have witnessed recently, so why are you surprised at the Zaghloul incident? BTW, this is not the first time that HA thugs and hoodlums go after people with everything they have in order to intimidate them. If anyone dares utter a word that is not pleasing to their ears, they will just raise hell including shooting, tossing grenades and firing RPG's as well as other means as was witnessed a week ago at a basketball game where Mustaqbal fans were harmlessly taunting some people who happened to be HA/Amal followers....it happens every day...might as well get used to it b/c it ain't changing until the fricking authorities do their jobs and truly go after these bastards!

[danny]

Ghassan, R, I read both articles…I do not know how reliable the German source is and whether Khashan has even copied from it…

I do not believe in conspiracy theories a la Lebanese way of thinking. If anyone were to know anything about international courts, they will not make outrageous comments of it being politicized. Only Lebanese and the guilty party would insinuate that.
The court and the process will move forward according to legal framework that has been set up. It will be more transparent than O.J.’s trial…without Judge Ito and the jury.

Bashar and Shawkat had a choice to make; either kill or be killed. Both could not survive the IT. I am surprised that Bashar could “overcome” Asaf (Shawkat allegedly being in control of all mukhabarati sources). However, the Lebanese four were and are useless; their conduits were the Syrian mukhabaratis. Through the past year most of the past Syrian people in charge in Lebanon from Bahjat Suleiman, Jamaa Jamaa, and Ghazali have “retired”. If I know anything about law, I’d tell you they cannot convict Assad based on heresay…Once the “middle management” has been eliminated, we’ll fall into he said she said and “telephone” records!!

Lastly; remember that Shawkat’s being “exposed” that he was preparing a coup against Bashar goes a long way in proving his point that Shawkat must have ordered the hits without his knowledge…This is the best cover for Assad. Of course Shawkat will be “suicided” out long before IT gets going…

[ghassan karam]

Danny,
I do not believe for a second that the head of the pyramid, Bashar,was not provided with plausable deniability if there is any truth to the allegations about Syrian involvement. Add to that that the International Tribunal did adopt a couple of years back upon the insistence of the Russians diplomatic immunity to the heads of state. I never expected Bashar to be indicted but the change of tone in the Gulf interview, the disappearance of Shawkat plus the Moughaniah killing lend credibility to the idea that the tribunal might not have any one to investigate on the Syrian side because all would have for one reason or another committed suicide.
Bashar will escape scot free if he can claim as he seems to be suggesting recently that these were rogue officers. One possibility not mentioned by Die Welt is that Bashar might have arranged for the so called coup attempt in order to have the excuse to remove Shawkat.
I am not sure that the tribunal will change anything on the ground. This does not mean that it should not be held but it means that March 14 have spent way too much time on it to the exclusion of governing. As important as the tribunal is yet it is not the only thing that matters. Most people are expected to chew and walk a straight line.

Chew AND walk in a straight line? in Lebanon? You must be joking, Gus!

[Shunkleash]

WELL SAID GHASSAN!

The Tribunal is what it is, an attempt to bring to justice the perpetrators of a crime ie killing a Prime Minister of country. It has nothing to do with Hariri (or how much of a thief he was). To say otherwise is nonsense.

Yet the M14 have defined their government by the Tribunal and used it as an EXCUSE to RULE, instead of using the peoples voice so clearly expressed as the RIGHT to RULE without being hamstrung by mantras of unified bullshit and no winner no loser. Berri and Naskharrah are all laughing because they know that the "majority" never had their eye on the prize (Lebanon) and that with pateince and attrition the status quo would be preserved. A house without foundation must collapse.

It is for this reason that M14 have TOTALLY failed, and will CONTINUE TO FAIL to rid lebanon once and for all of its fetid sores and resistaines.

Peace

[Helen]

well said!

[Bad Vilbel]

Well said Shunkleash!

[danny]

Ghassan, we were talking about the same thing...same conclusion.

Great Shunleash. I did not want to make a comment but what the hell; we're here for exchange of ideas.What you described: Great. But it is not that easy! march 14 won the elections with Amal/HA alliance. The IT did not come into play till December 2005! after which HA/Amal MPs came back after 6 weeks "hiatus". You forget the bombings and assasinations? July 2006 war? Do you thing HA will not invaded Beirut in 2005/6/7 if the government took any decisions that were against their wishes? Do you think bashar was going to let them be? Just asking...I am sure you have the answers...Do you think March 14 thought that Bashar was going to let the "middle management " survive before IT was operational? Again just asking. they know damn well that suicide and accidental deaths of top mukhabarati figures was going to spike!
The main raison d'aitre of the alliance was/is to rid themselves of the Syrian influence. They had sucked egg too long (30 years)!!
Please, I agree with a lot of the things we discuss here. BUT please do not oversimplify; just because you want to attack March 14!!

March 14 made a lot of mistakes; like abandoning their Shia independents among others. however; them the breaks!

If you think it is easy putting down 40% of the population after 25 years of HA rule of integrating them into Hizbastan, and brainwashing them intto believing that HA is their sole protector; then good for you!

[shunkleash]

Oh Dannyboy,

Not sure I understand your point of view. However, I think it best to break it down for you:-

"march 14 won the elections with Amal/HA alliance. The IT did not come into play till December 2005!"
and
"The main raison d'aitre of the alliance was/is to rid themselves of the Syrian influence. They had sucked egg too long (30 years)!!"

To begin with, M14 did not NEED HA/AMAL alliance to win any elections. THEY CHOSE TO ally themselves. For as the rancid politicians that they are, they wanted to make sure that if the upswell was "doused" by their mentors (the Syrians) they would have effectively hedged their bets, with minimal effort, and come out smelling like the fungus that they are (and of course keep their pre-emminent positions as sheiks, zaims, effendi's etc etc). However, when the humongous upswell of support that was being expressed on the street did not AND COULD NOT subside they became trapped in their own deceit. This became patently clear after the murder of Gebran Tueni as the sole means to effectively channel the movement was lost. THEY DID NOT HAVE A CLUE ON HOW TO ACT! By the way, the insult to the misery, the irony of ironies. can be traced to the old man of the mountain. His masterstroke was keeping George Hamilton in office to PROTECT (NOW GET THIS) Christians AND the OFFICE of president from being undermined. Can we all say WTF!

On the point of raisons, as I vividly recall, for 30 years NOT ONE of them sucked any eggs! In fact for 30 years they sucked the BLOOD from frigthened people to become filthy rich and fought amongst themselves! They had 30 years to fight the Syrians Dannyboy, I don't recall how or when they fought the Syrians. I do recall however copious amounts of bending over! Nevertheless, sort of odd, they chose that particular moment to gird their collective loins and grow some testicular fortitude to "rid themselves of the Syrian influence."

By the by, moving the investigation of the murder of hariri out of Lebanon was muted EARLY ON since it was recognised from EARLY ON that to keep it in lebanon would ensure it got lost somewhere between a "mail box" and where the sun does not shine.

"You forget the bombings and assasinations? July 2006 war?"

I forget nothing Dannyboy!

"Do you thing HA will not invaded Beirut in 2005/6/7 if the government took any decisions that were against their wishes? Do you think bashar was going to let them be?"

After a year and a half of playing with their balls and missing GOLDEN opportunities hmmm--> YES and NO(but hey them the breaks when you are fighting for YOUR OWN PEOPLE)!

"BUT please do not oversimplify; just because you want to attack March 14!!"

Oversimplify? How do you OVERSIMPLIFY the SIMPLE THINGS Danny boy?!?!?

MOI? Want to attack M14? WALLOW!!!. Why the hell would I want to criticise FOR NO APPARENT REASON an elected non performing government loaded with ass kissers, vagrants, crooks and pretty boys?

"March 14 made a lot of mistakes; like abandoning their Shia independents among others. however; them the breaks!"

What are you? Blind! At what point do you say ENOUGH with mistakes DO SOMETHING RIGHT?! OH?! and PLEASE EXPLAIN how the hell do you ABANDON Shia independents, when you have NOT even recognised they exist in the first place? How many Shia independents were in the ROBUST cabinet set up by weepy boy?

"however; them the breaks!"

Really?

"If you think it is easy putting down 40% of the population after 25 years of HA rule of integrating them into Hizbastan, and brainwashing them intto believing that HA is their sole protector; then good for you!"

Yes GOOD FOR ME! Why should I EXPECT ANYTHING LESS? What steps did they take to even try? Did they attempt to spread and enforce the rule of law in the daheya or the South? Did they attempt to stanch the flow of MONEY going to hizbteezee which is their LIFEBLOOD? Did they attempt to show the Shia that they are considered lebanese TOO?! Did they mobilise the states resources and "partisans" to go South after the actions of HIZBTEEZEE buggered US? Joke: How many Qatari's does it take to rebuild a southerners house? don't know, its Classified!

This may come as a surprise Dannyboy, but SURPRISE!! I don't have the answers! NONE OF US DO! AND we WILL NEVER have the answers BECAUSE the jackasses never actually did anything that would allow us to have answers.

Rolling over and playing dead is not what I consider to be taking decisive action, DO YOU?

Peace

[Helen]

well said Shunkleash!!! Danny, go check up close the way they do their work in the government (corruption and mahsoubiyyet 100% and all this with our own money) then I am sure you will rephrase what you said.

[Vodka]

Unfortunate but true........
http://www.annahar.com/content.php?priority=19&table=makalat&type=makalat&day=Sun

[ghassan karam]

I am very much in favour of the position taken by Shunkleash. I have visited and revisited the idea many times over the past two years. Maybe it is time to revisit it again? :-) Not today, not know.
I find the position advocated by Danny and many others to be very much anchored in apologetics. I further believe that the developments that have occured under March14 are indefensible. It is not enough to compare March 14 to HA and conclude that since it is far more acceptable/superior to the alternative then it must be given a Carte Blanche for its incompetence.
I am willing to go even further than Shunkleash . It is clear to me that March 14 was created for one purpose only; stiffle the potential revolutionary zeal of the Cedar Revolution in an effort to emasculate it. And coopt it they did . It was naive on the part of the Cedar Revolution to believe that the same leaders who gave us social inequity, political corruption, a couple of civil wars, modern feudalism and had prevented the formation of belonging to a state are all of a sudden going to turn around and become major players in the destruction of the corrupt system that they have invested so much time in creating. March 14 was and still is opposed to HA and its allies only because of the threat to their power and not out of a strong commitment to an idea. March 14 would consider it to be a great victory if they can recreate the Lebanon of the late 1960's. May I remind you that the seed for all what ails us was to be found in that undemocratic corrupt Lebanon. I would hope that we can aim slightly higher than that.
In the final analysis a revolution needs new blood, new thinking and above all new leaders. You don't get the same guards from the ancien regime and hope to transform society. The best that you can do with the pols of March 14 is to run on the spot just like running on a tread mill. That is one reason that I cannot be very hopeful about the future, the only agents for change in Lebanon are the same players that have brought about this mess, Geagea, Frangieh, Arslan, Gemayel, Salam, Aoun .... What we have in Lebanon is not even an evolution, we have at best an effort to preserve status quo and maintain the strangle hold of traditional clans. That is no revolutionunless as some wit put a revolution is making a full circle. Run in such a way as to end up where you started.

[danny]

"To begin with, M14 did not NEED HA/AMAL alliance to win any elections"

WRONG!!! Aoun was riding a 'high" that they could not work with. Had they not allied with HA/AMAL, Aoun would've. March 14 would not have had the majority. Currently times have changed after the euphoria over Aoun's arrival has evaporated and his mental illness revealed!! Now March might win a majority based on MPs on Christian (taken away from Aoun)or with an alliance with Murr and Tashnags.

"don't recall how or when they fought the Syrians."

WRONG! The Christians were constantly boycotting elections and fighting the Syrians (after the civil war ended in 1990)...

"Rolling over and playing dead is not what I consider to be taking decisive action, DO YOU?"

NO! however, as I mentioned, things are not as simple as you might try to show. Again, we saw the events of last month, when HA wanted to show their third rate thugs, they destroyed anything at will!

They have not been able to tame HA, because they can't! Either the Lebanese Shia's themselves cut them off (it might take 100000 years, if HA keeps their guns)or if Iran's/Syria's head gets smashed and regime change happens. another option is If a deal is made with Syria, whereas it 'takes care of it" (farfetched. HA might be more powerful and disciplined than the Syrian ragtags).

Shunkleash thank you for your opinion. I agree with a lot of points. However, without a civil war your "suggestions" could not have been done. I agree with you with the culture of corruption and nepotism! However, the events of the past 1.5 years cannot be explained summerarily with that logic!

Ghassan. i understand and agree with the core of your reasoning. Again, when you have Syria/Iran/HA, pointing their guns up your nose and after 30 years of nonexistance, one cannot expect a revolution against current leaders in a totally tribal and clanish country where sectarianism is rampant.

I am not making apologies for anyone. Your ideas to be implemented, the "revolting" has to come from the PEOPLE. If they are content in their "slaved cocoons"...then what could you expect?

[Sydney2008]

It is so disappointing that some of the people on this site are adopting the Aounist rationale...it seems like a tayyar site.You are unintentionally promoting their poisonous analysis of the situation...For sure 14th of March leaders are not the best but the focus on corruption distracts from the fact that these leaders have to face hell and death for their beleif in free Lebanon...after all we should all understand that states whether arab, iranian or western states are driven by their internal and foreign interests and we have to fit our interests into the broader political framework...The Lebanese issue is one of the most sophisticated and complex issues of the world of politics. Since 1973 till now we have been oscillating between active wars and latent wars or truces...

How can democracy and its corollaries flourish in such harsh circumstances? that is against the common sense. Can you expect less than a criminal from a child who lived all his life on the streets? Likewise We cannot expect a lot from a country who has been permanently raped abused and tortured by its neighbours.When did we have the opportunity to breath?
Let's imagine HA is disarmed and integrated into the "state' project", the evolution of a pseudo state into a state will gradually take place and replace the existing chaos. Or at least the Lebanese people will be able to embrace the new waves of liberation from feudalism, tribalism and so on. If we enjoy and praise the democratic values of the west and we were able to embrace them so the same will apply to all lebanese if they have the chance to have a taste of these values in Lebanon.
I think Danny is being more realistic ...you have to work with what you have and gradually raise your standards...or just despair and give up. I personally gave up and left but i still appreciate people who are struggling up there whether 14th of March leaders or people of the cedars...By the way people who killed Tueini and Kassir played it dirty but smart because they stabbed the Revolution in its heart...or its brain...
Cheers

[Super Dude]

Funny this discussion. I was always amazed by the logic that corruption is ruining Lebanon and the State, when their is barely any of both! How can the priority be fighting government administrative corruption, when the country is barely defined, secure, and sovereign?

Anyway, how can you reconcile your great 'laissez-faire', which is the pride of most Lebanese, with a transparent and honest government administration?

Also, if you know of any instances of corruption, why are they not reported?
Is it because the majority Lebanese have no understanding of civic engagement, and have no respect for the institutions and the law?

Of course, it is not that much different in your neighbour, Syria. If Lebanon was ruled like Syria, things would be different. Syrians and Lebanese are not that much different. Oh the blasphemy!

You can't have it both ways.