The most important thing is not dialogue

When will the Lebanese government erect posters, preferably the size of Hizbullah's divine victory posters, warning citizens and foreign visitors not to take pictures in territories run by the Hizbullah separatist group?

A French Socialist official attending a conference in Lebanon said Sunday he was detained for four hours by members of the Hezbollah group south of Beirut.

Karim Pakzad said he had been touring the area considered to be a Hezbollah stronghold in a convertible car and taking pictures when he was detained Saturday along with a companion and interrogated for four hours before they were both released.

Hezbollah said the two men were spotted near a Hezbollah official's residence in the suburb of Haret Hreik, "one of them taking a lot of pictures in a way that aroused suspicion."

The group said in a statement that the two were treated with "respect" and released after ascertaining their identities. Hezbollah said it had information of Israeli plans to target its members in the area and carry out other sabotage acts. (AP/IHT)

Pakzad had wanted to see "different parts" of Lebanon.

"We passed by a magnificent mosque ... and I took pictures of it," he said at a press conference. He described his detention as "a unique and painful experience" but said the "political consequences of the incident are much more important than something that concerns me personally."

Following the incident he told police that he was on the road leading up to Beirut International Airport when a motorcyclist followed by an SUV stopped him and led him to an unknown location for questioning, a senior police official told The Associated Press on Sunday.

According to Naharnet, Hizbullah wanted to "make sure they were not Israelis". Because you know, Israeli intelligence relies on photographs taken by spies disguised as French officials.

At the end of the day, it's never Hizbullah's fault.

Hezbollah in its statement accused Jumblatt and his allies of "exploiting the incident" for political gains and planning it by sending off an international delegate to the area without a security escort or any kind of coordination with the group, knowing the sensitivity of the situation.

One way to prevent this from ever happening again, apart from some kind of border demarcation between Lebanon and Hizbullah Land and clear travel warnings from the government of some of Lebanon, is of course dialogue outside the state's institutions!

Perhaps this will be "discussed":

South Lebanon villages are empty as Hizbullah sends recruits to tough training camps in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley, Syria and Iran, the Observer newspaper has reported.

"It's not a matter of 'if,' says one fighter. It's a matter of when Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah commands us."

Hizbullah's policy of refusing to discuss military matters extends to the highest levels. But meetings with fighters, activists, Lebanese security officials, the U.N. peacekeepers along the border and residents of south Lebanon and the southern suburbs of Beirut, offered a glimpse inside the workings of a group rarely open to outsiders, according to The Observer.

"The most important thing is to never talk," said one fighter, who agreed to speak about the group without revealing his name or specific duties inside "the Islamic Resistance of Lebanon", as the military wing of Hizbullah is known.

"From the moment we begin our training, we are told two things: never disobey an order and never talk about the resistance. Hizbullah is not a job, it is not a family. It is a mix of religion, honor, dignity and discipline. It is my life," the fighter told The Observer. (Naharnet)

Comments

[Bad Vilbel]

I'm glad this story is finally making front page. I ranted about it yesterday and marvelled at how everyone (blogosphere and mainstream media alike) seemed to treat as a simple matter of fact the fact that a non-governmental group can "apprehend" (abduct, kidnap, being the the more correct words) anyone for walking around public property in Dahieh.

Hizbullah has gotten away with this behavior for a long time, and have the audacity of acting fully ENTITLED to abducting people. They don't even bother to deny such criminal behavior.

And all the while, we keep hearing from Michel Suleiman how the security forces have the capital and Lebanon "under control".

I have often wavered back and forth on the topic of separation. And taken much flack for it. But it really has come to the point where Lebanon the state is beyond salvation. As Ghassan pointed out a few days ago, and as AK hints at in this entry: It is time to pull the plug on Lebanon. It is time to separate out those who want to live in a new, free, secular state (let's call it "New Lebanon") from those who want to run their own Iranian-style authoritarian dictatorship, where the law has no meaning except and everything goes as long as it's sanctioned by the divine victor himself (we'll call it "The Islamic Republic of Nassrallahstan".

It's really simple, really. Those who want to live in hatred, fear and war are free to migrate to Nassrallahstan. Taxpayer money can even be used to reimburse their moving expenses. (My guess is there won't be many takers, if that choice was actually put to the people).

The rest of us can be left out of this mess to live in peace. Hizbullah and the Assads can fight Israel all they want from the Golan and Shebaa and get bombed to kingdom come by the IAF. Leave the rest of us out of it.

[Umm K.]

BV--I've often thought about separation too, but feel it's unfair for me to express that opinion, seeing as I'm not Lebanese. But I also don't think it would be fair for HZ or Nasrallah worshippers to "physically" have any land that is considered Lebanon now...why do they deserve it? Harsh, I know.

[JoseyWales]

BV the abduction precedent was set a long time ago and is reaffirmed EVERY year.

When FOREIGNERS abduct ISF or shoot at the LEb army with no response (other than we are pro-Pali and love Syria) from the gvmnt. Can you really blame Hezbo?

[Just making a crazy point]

[Bad Vilbel]

Oh. I agree, Umm Kais.

In theory. In an ideal world. Death worshipers like that should simply get what they worship (ie death) and do not deserve to have their own state.

But let's face it. These people have (through brainwashing and other stupidity) a substantial following in the general populace. And it makes any kind of compromise resolution very unlikely.

To make matters worse, I think Lebanon as a whole (and this includes the other sects and groups) has never had the nationalistic or patriotic culture you see, for example, in the US. And say what you will about the US, this type of patriotism and allegiance to your state is PARAMOUNT for the very existence of a proper country.
Lebanon, as a state, has practically never existed. Let's face it. It's ALWAYS been a bunch of disparate groups with foreign allegiances. We've been practically "separated" from day 1. It just hasn't been made "official" yet.

And lastly, I'll repeat what i just finished posting on my blog (thank you copy/paste!):

Most states are made up of disparate groups that don't necessarily agree on everything. But generally, there are a few basic principles and non-negotiable premises that everyone agrees on, without which there is no state. Non-starters:

- Allegiance to the state.
- The understanding on a basic set of rules for the political game. No matter what.

In other words, we can disagree on a lot of things, including our vision of what the state should look like, but we all agree to work within the confines of a set of rules. Because we understand that without those basic rules, it's the law of the jungle. And without those basic rules, EVERYONE loses. There IS NO state.

Well, by this definition, there is no state of Lebanon and never has been.

[Bad Vilbel]

JW

You're right of course. This has been going on for years (the abductions). I just think that we should point it out and make it front page news EVERY SINGLE TIME IT HAPPENS.

I say this because we've all become somewhat desensitized to crap like this that would have people up in arms in any other country.

And part of the problem is that we have trained ourselves to treat these things as matter of fact. That's why no one seems to think it's a big deal that Hizb can arrest ANYONE (foreigner or not). because they've been doing it year after year, and no one calls them on it.

No one calls anyone on anything in Lebanon. That's the problem.

The people and the media are guilty of criminal negligence, if you ask me (or whatever the technical term is) for the mere fact of turning a blind eye to this crap. The people are COMPLICIT by their acceptance of such behavior.

NO ONE in Lebanon has the right to complain about being kidnapped. Why? Because no one speaks out when others get kidnapped.

It's the old "When they came for the communists, I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist" routine...

[naja]

"(...)dialogue outside the state's institutions". Precisely, AK, precisely. It's a point I will keep hammering: from a strictly legal point-of-view, the "dialogue committee" or whatever the hell it's called, holds absolutely no power whatsoever under the constitution - neither legislative, nor executive, and even less binding as a result. Lest we forget, this is hardly better than a karaoke version of an afghan loya jirga: a committee made up of wantonly selected leaders, many of whom hold no official representative position (I don't seem to remember Nasrallah, for one, holding a LEGALLY representative post - regardless of the fact that he would easily be an MP if he bothered). Just for the record, how many of the decisions that were eventually agreed upon at the last round were actually adhered to?
Exactly.

[Bad Vilbel]

Exactly.

[ghassan karam]

When some of us called for Saniora to step down over a year ago and when some described him as spineless, incompetent, jellyfish etc... many objected and argued that he is a master of diplomacy and that as time goes on we will see the results of his great ability to govern and be decisive.

As the Lebanese proverb says: The snow has melted and uncovered the "mess". What kind of a government is it that would fail to react to an outright act of gangestarism but at least condemning has total disregard for the state and the freedom of individual. This government does not deserve any support and will do us all a favour by resigning. And what about the ISF? Shouldn't they have issued arrest warrants for all of those that took part in this illegal and shameful act? There is an absolute minimum that governments and institutions are expected to do and when they fail to do the basics then they have in effect declared their irrelevance and bankruptcy. No one in this government and no one associated to it should ever be given the right to occupy a position of responsibility because they have just demonstrated their total incompetence and utter uselessness. Unfortunately, everything goes in Lebanon and if elections are to be held tomorrow then the electorate would bring back all of these sorry individuals that have managed through their magical powers to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.

The fact the these incompetents are less offensive than HA and its allies should never be used as an argument to accept mediocraty and failure. Lebanon's salvation requires a miracle revolution that would replace not only HA and its allies but also March14. If we fail, and we have failed thus far, to demand a responsible government then we are the only ones to blame for having lost the country, we will have to learn tolive with our conscience for the rest of our lives. And that should not be easy.

[Bad Vilbel]

As usual, brilliantly stated, Ghassan.

Needless to say, I am in complete agreement.

[Intellectual Atheist]

And in other news, Michelle Suleiman announces the army will fight any 'foolish' Israeli attack on Lebanon. Indeed, Monday afternoon the Army reported sighting snf deterence of F-16i Israeli fighter Jets above Beirut. They claimed anti-aircraft LAF units fired hummus sandwitches and olives - which in effect dettered and hindered the jets flight-path.

Handy, eh?

[Intellectual Atheist]

"But I also don't think it would be fair for HZ or Nasrallah worshippers to "physically" have any land that is considered Lebanon now...why do they deserve it?"

Hmmm, you're right - you shouldn't have bothered to propose anything, because you're not Lebanese.

Before I answer your question, I would like to first just introduce something to you. I'm Liberal and i'm atheist. I'm proud of myself to have let go of religion. SO. As you would know, I do not favour any of the sectarian warlords, secretary generals or leaders in Lebanon. Harriri and his Al-Qaeda type cronies, Hezbollah and their total disregard to secular and communist resistance groups and all Christian militias who fought these groups despite their nationalism and achievements. I;m not keen on anyone. I will criticise and roast them when injustice has been done. Oh ye, and I have never supported a single government in my lifetime - none are worth the respect of the dust on my shoes.

Now that is out the way. To answer your question. No offence but it is kind of a dumb question. Not implying that YOU are dumb, but these type of questions are called dumb, because the rational and moral answers contradict each other.

I will tell you why they would deserve such land rationallY. Because rationally speaking, all Lebanese governments throughout occupation (both Syrian and Israeli) did absolutely nothing to liberate, nothing to even help. Especially the South. It was totally discreditted as if it were non-;ebanese territory. Alot of Lebanese people hardly knew there was an occupation of their country, let alone experience it - god forbid as they say.

Hezbollah was the only party, if you wish, who reclaimed those lands. At the time, many analysts and speculators called them crazy for even thinking about liberating the South up until even the last days before liberation day. Just as today you have some thinking it is insane to think that Lebanon will ever regain Shebaa Farms through armed resistance and without a regional settlement. If one-tenths of a country's lands was liberated without such an agreement, I don't see why a fraction or sliver of a peice of land would need one.

My point is that you can not discredit a huge geographical area of you country but after it is freed by a thurd party, you scream independence, sovereignty, integrity etc. You owe no credit for the progress and you shouldn't have the right to claim such credit.

However, this infers that I agree with Hezbollah taking over areas it manages or liberates or is liberating. I'm not. Hezbollah liberated Lebanon. Not liberated a chunk of it to make it its own. We have had three years of March 14 and nothing has happened. It was the same faces all over again playing the political game but not wanting real change. Fair enough, they were elected in and I respect that - which is why I oppose this government stepping down, let it fulfil its mandated term which YOU as an electorate provided it with. This government wasn't installed and it didn't fall out from the sky. But we have tried their policy of dealing with Hezbollah.

I genuinely believe Hezbollah is a patriotic and powerful player in Lebanese politics. It is responsive to generous treatment. Stop trying to bully it and progress would be made. What is the point if me and umm k had a fight - then we try to reconcilliate and become friends but at the same time I am swearing and insulting her/him throughout the process. Hardly honourable.

When someone sacrifices so much under occupation and state-sponsored deprivation for so long, loosing economics assets, human lives, infrastructure and a broken and exhausted society - then they see a hude accomplishment like liberating their lands from the mightiest enemy in the region...believe me when I say trying to exhaust and tire them through insults and unacceptable demands is not going to get you anywhere. Just remember, as much as Hezbollah looks to you like the reincarnation of a Demon and you hate them and reject them etc, you must understand they are human as well. They went through unimaginable experiences and sacrifices to get to where they are, to expect them to throw that away due to a few cusses from Walid Beik is far-fetched. I certainly wouldn't share my cake with someone who swears at me while asking for some. I would rather splat it on his face and not eat it myself.

A change in approach must be pursued. Even communists were made to step down on some factors, I don't see how it is impossible to do that with Hezbollah. The next Lebanese administration can not afford the same flawed policy towards the national resistance (i mean ALLLLLL national resistance not only hezbollah) in not shunning it but talking and trying to reach an understanding. Maybe through something like an independent select committee - not Saad or baby-Sen

[AK]

Atheist, we all have suffered and "went through unimaginable experiences and sacrifices", this doesn't mean I will raise my children to become war machines, or to only take orders from the Sayed. It's intellectual dishonesty to even entertain the idea that a fundamentalist group such as Hizbullah has a place in a country such as Lebanon, regardless of how faulty and negligent its government is towards segments of the population.

Hizbullah a patriotic player? Patriotism is answering to your nation, not the lord of another. Hizbullah MPs admittedly do not recognize the authority of the Lebanese government, whether they are in it or out.

That's why your argument is beyond dumb, it's uninformed and intellectually dishonest. And for the record, as someone who hails from the south, I am not prepared to cede a single inch to this group of hijackers. You don't replace an occupation with another. Those aren't liberators.

[Bad Vilbel]

Atheist, your argument defies all logic. It makes presumptions about who did what and who is entitled to what, based on your selective worldview (and disregarding any other facts and truths).

The people in the South are not the ONLY ones who endured occupation. We've all endured occupation by Israel, Syria and the PLO. We've all had our land taken from us. We've all suffered. So spare me the self-righteous claptrap.
Your argument is disingenious at BEST (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and not calling you dumb).

And don't for one second try to convince me that Hizbullah operated out of true patriotism as a "resistance". You honestly believe that? If that were the case, they'd have done everything in their power to help the Lebanese Army, rather than going against it. They would've also "Resisted" the Syrians, and the Palestinians, and every other foreigner on our lands.

Spare me...Seriously.

[Jay]

For a self-proclaimed intellectual and and rational thinker you seem to miss a very basic yet fundamental point when you go on attacking the "Lebanese governments". Please name to me a single government created under the Syrian hegemony that was truly an independent government working for the the country and the people?

[Bad Vilbel]

Eh. I often agonize on whether to acknowledge such silly comments on this or other blogs. Part of figures "they'll never learn if they are not shown the error of their ways in a rational and civilized argument.", but then part of me figures some people only pretend to be interested in civilized debate, and really have no intention of ever being swayed, despite any mountain of rational evidence you might provide. They'd rather live in denial, in their make believe fantasy world, where pigs can fly and actual facts have no baring on their worldview.

[VOR]

HA's intentions are very well documentated. They have deliberately violated state institutions for their own interests, never even once, having shown any remorse about the terrible damage that they have caused to the legitimacy and authority of the state, all in the name of serving someone else's interests. HA's design is not that of a free and independent state, not one in which they can exercise democratic rights, but rather one that would undermine the state's democratic principles by constatntly flouting the rule of law without any fear of punishment, not to mention the blatant use of coercion and intimidation thanks to a huge supply of illegal weapons at their disposal. HA in a nutshell is the anathema of everything a free and democratic Lebanon stands for! They frickin' prove it every day and couldn't care less!

[Bad Vilbel]

Well stated, VOR.

It is precisely because HA's intentions are so clear and well documented that I simply cannot believe how there are still people who don't get it, and who come here and lecture us about "Resistance".

[Umm K.]

"Hmmm, you're right - you shouldn't have bothered to propose anything, because you're not Lebanese." No, I'm not but my sons are Lebanese Shia and I am a Lebanese citizen, so I feel I can weigh in on matters, so please throw away your patronizing attitude. Over my dead body will my sons only be presented with the Hizbullah option as young Shia men--HZ is NOT patriotic, they have thrown the Lebanese state away, and therefore don't deserve to be a part of it. Yes, many believe that Hizbullah "liberated" Lebanon, but what are they doing now? Do you believe they "liberated" the country in 2006?

[Lover]

I am with you, VOR. Your argument is correct. But many of you misunderstood my point. I said from the beginning Hezbollah's existence as an autonomous proxy-state. My argument was the way we approach Hezbollah to make their existence per se in the form it is today, i.e. an independent virtual state.

We can not expect Hezbollah to cede its power through intimidation and agreggation due to their experiences and the hardships they went through to become what it is today - just as we can not expect the Lebanese government today to step down - even though hundreds of thousands protested against it, because of the legitimacy and the manadate handed to it by the Lebanese electorate. Voters can have a chance to put this government to account through elections, wehereas with Hezbollah everything is done internally. No-one elected Nasrallah to be cheif of Hezbollah, but at the same time normal citizens couldn't elect Jumblat or GaeGae or Gemayel to their positions and no-one elected Harriri to succeed his father. You see my drift?

The Lebanese system is flawed and what we have today are multiple mini-states. The example of the incidents in Tari2-l-Jdeede is an example of this invisible partition. Harriri and march 14 in general accused the opposition of going into 'our' areas i.e. Tari2-l-Jdeede and causing havoc. I don't know how people understand a sovereign and independent, modern and democratically liberal society - but I know that areas shouldn't be restricted to others on religious or political factors - and neither should freedom of expression be constrained to one geographic area.

Hezbollah was the result of reluctance to govern in a failed state. No governments have had the balls to hold Hezbollah to account or try to limit it's power during the Syrian rein and even post-syrian intervention, didn't march 14 and Hezbollah have a pact together? Many saw it as an trick to win votes, I see it as reluctance of the soon-to-be-established government to legitimately draw a red line on Hezbollah. Otherwise, this government would have never made an understanding with Hezbollah (not the FPM's one) over the legitimacy of Hezbollah resistance and arms. Having done so, March 14 lost all credibility when dealing with Hezbollah.

After the absence of the state in so many areas for so many years, you can not expect everything to get back to normal in a fornight (I don't know what 'back' to 'normal' is - not like we have ever had normalcy in Lebanon). My point stands that it is not only Hezbollah who has arms, who creates no-go zones or mobolises sympathisers in a geograpohically limited area and reins authority on them. Essentially, nearly all big political players in Lebanon have and continue to do this. The day that these 'rulers' practice self-criticism and display true willingness of change - together with the right approach - Hezbollah would cease to exist in the form it is today.

Furthermore, I am not trying to paint a grim picture but time is running out. The process should start immediately because - as the heightned media attention proves - Hezbollah may consider re-introducing the Serail Brigade, essentially a Hezbollah military wing made up of multi-faithful members. If this is one day introduced, Hezbollah essentially cedes to be a shia-only, iranian-controlled party. It will widely be perceived as being a truely Lebanese, patriotic and multi-faithful resistance force. When this happens, credibility will be on their side, so will more sympathisers side with them, the islamic extremism factor also drops along with the terrorist factor. Then, we have a problem. There will hardly be anything to use against the party other than it's independence from the state - even then Hezbollah may well argue that it consists of a variety of sects in Lebanon and therefore represents a wide base of Lebanon's inhabittance.

I believe Hezbollah's time has come and past. They can not exist the way they do today. But the way of acheiving what we all want needs to change.

[Lover]

Messed up on the first paragraph. I'll write it again:
I am with you, VOR. Your argument is correct. But many of you misunderstood my point. I said from the beginning Hezbollah's existence as an autonomous proxy-state needs to end. My argument was the way we approach Hezbollah to make their existence per se in the form it is today, i.e. an independent virtual state, needs to be recreated and transformed into something more responsive.

i.e. i'm sorry for my sudden re-appearance, but increasingly I find myself on the same side, but with a slightly different perspective. I guess the 'PR' war conducted against me by some on several blogs (apparantly i'm some hezbollah spammer guy) distorted pretty much everything I said into negativity.

[Maverick]

" Hezbollah may consider re-introducing the Serail Brigade, essentially a Hezbollah military wing made up of multi-faithful members... Hezbollah essentially cedes to be a shia-only, iranian-controlled party. It will widely be perceived as being a truely Lebanese, patriotic and multi-faithful resistance force... the islamic extremism factor also drops along with the terrorist factor... Hezbollah may well argue that it consists of a variety of sects in Lebanon and therefore represents a wide base of Lebanon's inhabittance."

hehehehe, no disrespect but i have to thank you for providing me with the joke of the week, i havent stopped laughing...I also hear AOUN syndicate is expanding its wide and multi ethnic support by undertaking a massive marketing campaign targeting the Druze in the Shouf.

NewsFlash Lover...Hizbollah wont stop its momentum until the spirit of Ayatollah Khomani succeeds, socially, politically, militarilly, religiously...so all ye apologists and sympathiserz from the aounists to the left and beyond, your all kidding yourselves.

[naja]

Good heavens! Lover? Are you switching sides? Is there still hope in this pityful nation of ours? I am in Riyadh so I cannot have been drinking...

[Mark]

Lover,

I agree with you on a few counts and also disagree with you on others. The way to coexist and come to an agreement with another party is not through strong-arming them. It is part of the problem I have seen with the US and its treatment of Iran and North Korea with their nuclear programs. The way to get them to come to our side is not by parading them in front of the international community as pariahs (even though that is what they are). They have to save face. North Korea is only somewhat cooperating with us now because we are allowing them to do it under "their own terms". We are allowing them to save face. Hizbullah will not walk quietly into the night if they are to be emberrased on their way out. M14 may or may not realize this, but I agree that some on this blog do not. I do not agree with HA one bit, and I find them to be the scour of Lebanon's existence, but at the same time, we will not accomplish the ends (disarmament being the most important) if we shame them through our means. Although, I will contradict myself by agreeing to the principle of fighting fire with fire in this case because I don't think there is any way to convince HA to disarm or bring themselves into the many folds of Lebanese society with mutual respect for all. HA wants an Islamic state like Iran's and wants to use Lebanon to fight Israel. This is where HA's ultimate goals are not compatible with the rest of Lebanon, and as long as this is true, even the most amenable compromise with HA will not disarm them or topple their mini-state. It will only strengthen them as it has over the past 18 years. They should never have been part of the government. They are outlaws and should be treated as such. But the fact that they have made it through the past 18 years intact means it changes the rules. How do you reconcile a bunch of thugs like HA through amenable compromises? I don't have an answer to that.

I disagree with you on your example of Tari2-l-Jdeede. HA supporters went into that neighborhood with the express purpose of causing havoc. They did not go there to visit the local cafe or to visit their friends. They went to cause trouble. This is different from the many instances where non-HA members have been turned away from "security zones" in the south and Beqaa. The most recent example of this was the French socialist who was detained by HA for taking pictures of a mosque. The Tari2-l-Jdeede incident is not analagous. HA would be welcome to the local cafe in Tari2-l-Jdeede for peaceful and civil reasons. Unfortunately, non-HA members are not welcome in Dayiheh for the same. The reason Hariri may have charactarized Tari2-l-Jdeede as "our" area is because HA knew what they were doing by going there. The same cannot be said about the French Socialist. If I were to drive to the other side of the tracks to grab a pack of smokes from the convenience store, that is one thing, but if I go there wearing a white sheet and pointy hat on my head, that's another. Do you see the difference? I wouldn't be surprised if the inhabitants of that area were to refer to it as "ours" in the latter case, but not in the former. Lebanon will always be self-segregated. Christians aren't going to go moving en masse to Dahiyeh in the same way that Shi'as aren't moving to Bcharre. So in that sense, everyone is going to have an "our area". It's like that in America, but we don't have the same incidents as Tari2-l-Jdeede.

[VOR]

Lover, no one is against dialogue but all parties must be willing to compromise and reach an understanding based on mutual repsect. What has HA done to fall in line with this concept? Are they willing to give up their illegal security apparatus that undermines that of the state? Are they willing to disarm themselves like all the other parties have done after the war? Are they willing to respect the rule of law and to abide by the constitution that give them equal rights with everyone else? The answer so far by their daily actions is a blatant NO! They are only interested in furthering their own interests at the expense of the state and they know they can do so with impunity because they are the most powerful militia in the land and they feel they can do what they please. I do agree however, that their arrogance and disdain for the country's legal institutions is exposing them as the true thugs and outlaws that they are. I don't see how anyone can reason with this type of belligerent and rebellious attitude. As far as their suffering as mentioned above..show me who among Lebanon's sects have not suffered hardships during this ugly period we call 'civil war'? It certainly does not give anyone a license to openly violate the rule of law and the state's authority. A lot of us now believe that our diffrences with HA have become irreconcilable and a chance at compromise has long passed...the only solution is either open confrontation which no one really wants or separation which has become almost de facto as mentioned above. Either way you look at it, the future looks bleak for Lebanon based on HA's decision to build their own state within a state.

[Lover]

Points taken Mark and VOR. I agree on alot you both say, but also understand on other parts of your arguments. I will start with what Mark said.

"Unfortunately, non-HA members are not welcome in Dayiheh for the same [presumably coffee]"

I don't know if you knew this Mark, but the Dahyeh, historically, was a christian town/city. It did not have any Shi'a in it until sometime in the 60's where poor shi'a labourers moved to the suburbs for city jobs. The most famous example of a Christian dude from the Dahyeh is, ofcourse, Aoun.

Point being, there are many Christians who are from the Dahyeh and do live there, but oppose Hezbollah. Aoun was not Hezbollah's Cherry back in the mid-80's and 90's. It was him who afterall puhed for resolution 1559.

Now if you go visit the Dahyeh, alot of christians residing there genuinely support Hezbollah. This was especially true post-2006 war. The Christians - most of whom have had it easy since the civil war in the mountains, far away from mainland, and away from the Israel-Arab problems that ensued, they felt first-hand what it was like to be in a war with Israel. Collective punishment is too easy a word. As I understand you P.O.V., you must also understand theirs. They don't have it so good in New York or London. They are impoveished people who are afraid if Hezbollah loses its status, or indeed ceases to exist, they will lose everything and go back to the status quo of governmental and institutionalised relluctance of the Shi'a that is being displayed to this day! (There are countless examples and I don't like going there).

Also to add to this, the whole thugish and bafoonish behaviour represents a fraction of Hezbollah supporters/members. Indeed, if all Hezbollah members wanted to act thugish - well, all I can say is a few thousand of the middle easts most desciplines, well-trained, hard-battled and experienced military elites running on a rampage in Beirut can never look very pretty or cute. But there is no denying that Hezbollah DOES have people who are actually trained to use stones and sticks, and regrettably sometimes a gun or two, to be used as 'deterrence' against others. i.e. they DO have trained thugs to fight...other thugs.

However, if people keep on denying what is going on in Lebanon, nothing will be resolved. The elephant in the room right now is that we have multiple mini-case scenarios of that of Hezbollah sprung up all over Lebanon. I would love to go roam around Lebanon and enjoy my beautiful country without any restrictions. However, with a name like Ahmed (that is my real name) I wouldn't get into much Christian villages or towns, and being an Atheist I don't think I would come out of Tripoli with my head over my shoulders. And I say this in all seriousness. And it sucks.

Something else. To prove to you that 'your' or 'our' people do go into 'others' territory is the example of when they burnt down the SSNP offices. Is that not thuggish behaviour displayed by people other than Hezbollah? Yes, I know the SSNP are crack-heads, racist and thugs - i'm not denying it - but they if you have a green light to attack/ban them, then there is trouble in Lebanons democracy. As much as i would like to ban BNP here in London's mayoral/assembly elections and indeed across all of Britain, because of their blaitant sexism and racism, I simply can't because this is a democracy. Anyway, back to the point. Didn't Samir GaeGae send down 'IL SHABEIB' to '2i7mi (protect)' the villages from Aounists when they were going to attend that demonstration against the government - when it was shown on TV through live feeds that they had blocked traffic and on occassions started scuffles.

Now VOR, when you asked those questions, maybe the druze and christian and sunni and palestinian and shi'a militias in all their forms didn't spring to mind, but you don't need me to tell you how they used to 'roll'. When I talked of Shi'a hardship, I wasn't talking of that brief moment of emphasis we had called a civil war - i was talking about the civil reluctance shi'a had been subjected to since Lebanon's creation. Which is why Shia today can not let go of Hezbollah - it would essentially mean letting go of all their power, letting go of their place in Lebanon and letting go of the food they put on the table for their families. When the government starts to give the Shi'a priority in SOMETHING and hence reasons to move camp, and maybe they can start with those year-and-a-half late compensation cheques, then maybe Hezbollah's support base, which it's existence depends on, starts to dwindle. But if all we have for the Hezbollah sollution is non-credible dog-barking up the tree, then i'm sorry but nothing is going to change. Credibility comes when the war-lords do not have influence on Lebanese politics, when they cede all weapons (and i mean all, even bows and arrows < and yes im joking), cede all authority over any land (political) and truly be part of the democratic process. Leaders of parties should at least be MP's. Then all this should be done in Sync with Hezbollah, because if you notice whenever any criticism is levelled against them, they will always point at something similar in the M14 camp - and they have a point. Why should I act any different when THEY demand it even though THEY do it as well!

Anyways, it's an open discussion. PS if I was a Jewish Lebanese (and there is such a thing and I have a few friends who are Lebanese Jews) then trust me, this whole denial of yours really is fucked, sorry for the language but it's true. Then I would most likely die in 99% of all Lebanese communities if they even find that out. When you put it under these types of lens, then you start understanding a bit more.

[tg]

" It is time to separate out those who want to live in a new, free, secular state (let's call it "New Lebanon") from those who want to run their own Iranian-style authoritarian dictatorship, where the law has no meaning except and everything goes as long as it's sanctioned by the divine victor himself (we'll call it "The Islamic Republic of Nassrallahstan"

And this "free" and "secular state" will be headed by Harriri I presume?

lol

[Bad Vilbel]

tg,

No. Don't presume, please. It's presumptuous. Read what I wrote. A free and secular state will be headed by whoever the people elect. And the word SECULAR would imply that it could be someone from ANY sect.

But I'm sure you're too busy assuming and presuming and putting words in other people's mouths to actually stop and read anything I wrote.

[tg]

"No. Don't presume, please. It's presumptuous. Read what I wrote. A free and secular state will be headed by whoever the people elect. And the word SECULAR would imply that it could be someone from ANY sect.

But I'm sure you're too busy assuming and presuming and putting words in other people's mouths to actually stop and read anything I wrote."

Wake up. If you think it's solely hezbollah blocking Lebanon from becoming a "free and secular" than you have another thing coming.

Each sect has their own personality cults. Harriri, Jumblatt, and Geagea will be the de facto leaders of this "new lebanon" of yours. Making this out to be a good lebanon vs hezbollah is a gross over simplification of the current problem.

[LebExile]

TG,

why are you so hung up on personality cults?? Does it have anything to do with the divine one???

Geagea, Jumblatt and the rest of them would be gone in a new Lebanon - since they are warlords like you mention... currently, we are at de facto war with HZ and unfortunately, Hass has turned all the lebanese communities against the shia..

The only reason the other communities keep electing warlords is for a reason... they feel at war.

how about you derive a few assumptions out of that!

[Bad Vilbel]

tg,

"Wake up. If you think it's solely hezbollah blocking Lebanon from becoming a "free and secular" than you have another thing coming."

And where, prey tell, did you get the idea that I think it's solely hezbollah that's blocking the free and secular state?
Have you even been reading my comments on this site for the past 2 years? I've been equally critical of M14 and their old sectarian mentality.

I'm sick and tired of small-minded people who can't seem to read what I say and who just want to assume that because I critique Hizbullah in today's comment, i must be a fanatic M14 supporter. Or because I critiqued PM Saniora the other day, I must be a fanatic Aounist.

The world is not black and white. Two wrongs DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT. There are countless degrees of colors in between M14 and Hizbullah. And just because I speak up against one today doesn't mean I am in love with the other.

[Jeha]

BV,

You can take a horse to water, but you can't make them drink; people will read what they want to see, no matter how well reasoned you try to be.

This is ever more the case in the context of a Lebanon where you HaftaChooz a side over the other, now matter the logic.

[Bad Vilbel]

You're right, Jeha. This kind of incident has been happening to me almost on a DAILY basis lately, on more than one blog. I say one thing, and some guy shows up and starts putting words in my mouth that I didn't say, or assuming that because I attacked A, I must blindly follow B.

Long gone are the days where people took the time to actually read what the other was saying, or look into his previous track record.

It really wouldn't take very long for someone to assertain whether I'm "blindly following the March 14 leadership" or not (hint, my latest 2 blog entries are pretty scathing attacks on March 14). But these people can't be bothered. I spoke ill of Hizbullah, therefore, i must be a Hariri cronie...

[VOR]

Lover, all lebanese politicians reek of hypocrisy and anyone with common sense will tell you that. I am not necessarily being critical of HA exclusively, believe me there's much to go around for the others as well. But to the extent that one party has been able to influence events in such a negative way much more than the others, then you'll agree that HA wins hands down. It is their blatant and strong arm tactics that are causing tensions and risking sectarian conflicts, case in point, what is happening in the Kharroub region, in addition to the altercations and occasional clashes in and around the capital that are pushing others to contemplate arming themselves in self defense. Let's face it, HA has opened the doors for internal conflicts wide open with their disregard for law and order outside of their areas and they have put the country in harms way. You can't argue with that, there is simply no frickin excuse no matter what kind of logic you try to use, it is obvious for everyone to see, and that should include you as well.