Another March 14 MP killed

March 14 MP and Kataeb party member Antoine Ghanem was reportedly killed today in a massive bomb attack in Sin El Fil, Beirut. LBC reported 6 dead so far including Ghanem, and ten wounded.

The assassination comes 6 days before a scheduled parliament session to elect a president. The pro-Syrian and Hizbullah-led coalition threatened to boycott the session if March 14 used a majority vote to elect a president. Many in March 14 expected political assassinations to precede the election and reduce the parliament's majority. The Assad regime opposes a president from March 14, and insists on a pro-Syrian president to safeguard its interests and the interests of its allies in the country, including Hizbullah. The Assad regime also wants a president to "open a dialogue" on recent UNSC resolutions calling on Syria to respect Lebanese sovereignty and establishing a tribunal to try those responsible for the Hariri assassination and other political crimes in the country. 

According to al-Markazia, Syria rejected a French deal for more open relations between the EU and Syria, as well as a seat in the upcoming Middle East peace conference in Washington, in return for lifting of the Syrian veto on the Lebanese presidential election. Just today, the regime's mouthpiece al-Thawra published a scathing and personal attack on French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, who on more than one occasion publicly proposed open relations with Syria if the latter stopped blowing up its Lebanese opponents and allowed parliament to vote in a president.

Antoine Ghanem was reportedly a moderate well liked by MPs from both sides of the divide. With his murder, the majority lost another vote, and March 14 MPs may not feel safe anymore to stay in the country, let alone head to parliament on September 25th to elect a president. Many MPs are outside the country (including Ghanem, who just returned). As for the Assad regime, it has just reconfirmed to the world, especially to the French, that it does not care about dialogue or open relations with the west.

Update. According to MP Wael Abou Faour, Ghanem, who arrived in Lebanon two days ago, told him he wasn't afraid and said they should all head to parliament to elect a new president . Ghanem belonged to Walid Jumblatt's bloc.

Update 2. The death toll rose to nine.

Update 3. Lebanese Forces leader Samir Geagea said Lebanese security agencies (he didn't specify) are infiltrated (presumably by Syrian intelligence), which he said facilitates the work of the killers, the aim being to reduce the parliament's majority.

Update 4. From Naharnet:

A friend of the victim, speaking on condition of anonymity, quoted Ghanem as telling him Tuesday evening: "I face the threat of assassination. They want to kill me to open the door for by-elections to choose a new MP from (Michel Aoun's) Free Patriotic Movement." Ghanem had represented the Baabda-Aley constituency in parliament since the year 2000. Ghanem's constituency houses Hizbullah's stronghold in the southern suburbs of Beirut, where the party that is opposed to the March 14 alliance carries a sizeable influence.

Update 5. Saad Hariri said the "cowardly" Assad regime chose to respond to the Israeli raid by killing Lebanese.

Comments

[Lover]

If im critical of M14, it makes me loyal to M8?

This is the mentality that some people need clearing from their brains.

I realise alot of confusion has been created on my behalf of what points im making. If I praise Hezbollah for something, it does not mean im a Hezbollahi. I fi criticise a political party of something, it doesn't mean I sympathise with its enemies. OKAY?

I'm atni-M14 and M8 and FPM.

All gave their share of destruction, corruption and abuse of power in Lebanon.

I'm pro-new faces. Seniora has been in the government for years now. In effect, if I criticise this current government, i believe im criticising every single government throughout lebanons modern history - simply because it holds all the same faces.

Also, i did not criticise the government. I criticised all politicians for being no different of each other. While the opposition says thatthe government is to blame because these ministers have no protection they are doing two things. 1) they are taking the responsibility off the shoulders of the real criminals, whomever they may be. As I said, I don't care if it's Syria, russia, israel, cuba or argentina. In order to progress in the field of stopping these assasinations, we need to clearly know who are commiting them and why. 100% clearly. We also need to treat every case as seperate. How do you know this isn't just some clan taking personal revenge of this minister because of the politics present. The second damage the opposition does by accusing the government is showing themselves as hypocryts because i don't see them coming up with any new ideas and presenting them to both the government and the public.

As for the majority rulers. They should wake up a little bit and start looking to the long-distant future instead of the direct present. Sooner or later Lebanon will have to reconcile with Syria. It is a factual reality that needs to happen sooner or later. What i meant by Syria not being the enemy is not the political crap - i meant it literaly. They are not an enemy state. We are not at war with Syria. Syrians can come into our country and we can go to theirs. Trade happens. Not with Israel though. That is what I meant. The ruling majority have a responsibility in producing a plan to minimise the danger on our freely elected leaders, to shoulder responsibility in not protecting its citizens as well as to not always blame Syria for it. Syria might be the perpetrator. I certainly would not be surprised if they were. It may be just some loose banditts whom used to have ties with Syria and are now looking for damage for loosing their jobs. It might be a tramp who found a bomb and thought it would be an entertaining spectacle to kill an MP. It might be any political party taking advantage of the political situation to try and blocken Syrias image. No body knows FOR SURE. While M14 seems so sure and thinks its only rational that Syria did it, at the same point the exat number of the second half of the country thinks of the same idea as bezerk and it could only be explained as US/Israeli intervention or w.e. One of you two is right. So one of you is totally wrong. And it could be any one.

What I have to say is this. The Lebanese should wke up and reconcille. The protection or the condemnation of any party/nation does ot deserve national dis-unity. As Lebanese we should not allow any country - ally or enemy - to dismiss and curse our Lebanese brethrens, even in politics. Outside politics we are great people. In politics we become so unwittingly retarded and lame sheep.

Hezbollah, if Syria calls our leader a 'half-man', call him a quarter for not responding to Israel when you did. While you, Hezbollah, fought with Israel and Syria showered you with congratulations - They took the cowards way out by using words and not action.

Seniora, if Iran calls Hezbollah a terrorist and an agent of whoever - defend them. For arguements sake quikly reply that they have indeed done alot for lebanon. They are deemed by many Lebanese as the national rsistance. Even if you don't agree with this, for the sake of respect, do not allow anyone like Rice or Bush to call them agents of whoever - whether it is true or not. Just say it's none of your business.

Hamade, you escaped death. Don't let this experience go to waste. Do something about it other than threats and useless finger-pointing. Make a government or parliamentary committy which would look into recruiting Lebanese detectives.

Berri. It isn't cool to be any-ones mail-box. If you think of yourself as such a good person to Lebanons democracy (and im not denying or agreeing), then set a precedent by making your party an alternative Shi'a party instead of a complementary one to that of Hezbollah. Give the Shi'a more of a choince than one or nothing. This WILL lead to multi-political toleration among the Shi'a. Currently, if you're not Hezbollah, then you're deemed anti-resistance to Israel and therefore you're not muslim and an agent. That is not necessarily true. You might hate Israel and want a force to counter it - but you might not agree to their strategy and ideology (whcih btw thye force on everyone else, because quite frankly there isn't any other choice).

To Harriri. Your own brother told the press you went to Israel and talked to the Israeli leadership. Don't be surprised when anyone attacks your party by calling it names such as an agent party or whatever. There is a saying, two wrongs don't make a right. If they are wrong - explain to them, educate them, prove to them that you aren't this or that. You don't fix it by calling them the same names and labels they call you. If they are immature - and then you do the same thing back - then you're less mature because you KNOW it's immature to name-call and at the same time you choose to do it in self-defense!

Jumblat. The best way to protect your small community of Druze, is not the way you're doing it now. By trying to divide the split in Lebanon, pissing off presidents of sovereign nations, pissing off powerful political leaders, cursing, asking the same questions ten times even though they were answered from the first and by switching sides when it suits is not cool. You're a political wind indicator to the Lebanese. That's not a good thing. Revenge and vendettas might be a consequence to your actions and will be carried out against your minority group. You left Hezbollah, you're lucky their militia is disciplined. You mess with the wrong people and ditcht hem, they might not handle it so well. The best way for you (personally) is to just shut up and stay neutral. You can pass a slight statement once in a while, condoning or condemning, or even an active member in politics - but seriously you're over-doing it.

[Solomon2]

It is almost impossible to stop such people unless you play their own game (which makes you an animal)...The only solution for now is security.

e, are you so sure about that? Have you read Lord of the Rings, a novel shaped by its author's experiences in World War I? Pretty much the whole plot centers around poor Frodo's journey to assassinate (indirectly) the ultimate villain and thus end a devastating war with certain victory for the forces of good. But a major theme of the story is Frodo's struggle to remain himself rather than turn into an animal. In the end, with help, he succeeds, but not completely.

Yet it was considered a worse thing to do nothing and remain "pure" if that led to certain defeat, which would mean extinction or slavery. As one of the characters in the novel says of the "security" approach, "You can fence yourselves in, but you cannot fence the world out." With enough will and resources, evil will find a way through the strongest barriers, either by brute force or through base treachery.

I stated yesterday that the Israeli raid into Syria broke down a preconceived notion of impunity Syria had up to that point. That approach needs to continue and to be escalated

BV, You don't have the power to make plans for others, you can only make them for yourselves. The advantage of the Internet is that you and your friends can get together and do so without fear.

As Lebanese we should not allow any country - ally or enemy - to dismiss and curse our Lebanese brethrens, even in politics...Hezbollah, if Syria calls our leader a 'half-man', call him a quarter for not responding to Israel when you did.

Lover, by thinking in terms of what "we Lebanese should do" you are actually talking about making a personal difference in cooperation with others with a view to running your own affairs. That's great. Just remember that doing so in a group doesn't release anyone from a measure of personal responsibility for his or her actions and beliefs. As Frank Herbert wrote, "I can think of nothing more poisonous than to rot in the stink of your own reflections."

[JoseyWales]

Vox, you're right, I did not think about the actual district (but about the principle).

You're also right, the Syrians know what they are doing. In part it's the same plan as 75-76: sow enough mayhem and pain for people to say: Ok I'll take Satan if he can stop this.

Another bonus is people will say "Screw Saniora" and his gvmnt.

Security is job ONE and not much can be done about the infiltration of services without appointing your people to the top spots. If you don't have the presidency and the gvmnt you can't do that. Catch 22 for now.

[Bad Vilbel]

And that is exactly why the opposition and the Syrian are so intent on either sabotaging the Presidency, or getting their guy and a veto power on the upcoming government.

It's not only obstructionism, but they can't have M14 running roughshod with all sorts of new appointments that might actually bring some sort of security to the state.

[fubar]

"Lebanese Forces leader Samir Geagea said Lebanese security agencies (he didn't specify) are infiltrated (presumably by Syrian intelligence), which he said facilitates the work of the killers, the aim being to reduce the parliament's majority."

Hmmm, presumably by Syrian intelligence, how very PC of you, AK.

Antoine Ghanem, the latest in a long string of sacrificial lambs slaughtered on the alter of the evil empire by the wraiths of darkness. In this war, where only one side is willing to slaughter the other to achieve power, the lambs lose through attrition to the wolves.

A man who knows the power born of strength has naturally aligned himself with the wolves.
A man who knows the humiliation born of servitude has yet callously condemned Lebanon to such a fate.
A man who cannot see that the wolves will eventually turn on him unknowingly awaits his turn on the sacrificial alter.
Worry not for now, Micho, rest assured that you are so special to the wraiths of darkness that they will surely spare you till last.

The meek may not inherit Lebanon... but the wolf pack will tolerate only one alpha male.

“Let me die in this old [Colonial] uniform in which I fought my battles. May God forgive me for ever having put on another.” – Benedict Arnold

[Amir in Tel Aviv]

From what I read in Hebrew Ynet, now M14 doesn't have
even a simple majority ( 64 MPs left ) to vote for president.
The chaos just begins...
.

[Lover]

"You say we blame Syria with no clear evidence. How can you say that when you consider Syria's brutal and savage history in Lebanon."

Sorry to break it to you buddy, but you tell me - who's history is more savage, Israel's or Syria's? Americas or Syrias? Isn't the Phalangists history savage? Isn't the Lebanese Forces' history savage? What about anarchist Palestinians? You called Fateh al islam even though all facts and evidence showed the exact opposite.

Now, ofcourse, you can start giving me a lecture about how the Lebanese Forces have changed. And how the Phalangists have changed. How the Jumblat clan also changed. Alot of people and alot of parties change. Is Syria prone to it all? Are they in any way secluded?

This world is full of self-interest. No country does anything for anyone if it doesn't gain anything from it. Don't think this is a lovy-lovy world with people loving in each other for the sake of it. What we have to learn is how to look after our own before we defend anyone else.

Why do we let foreigners insult what our people have created - just because it suits us. Is the payroll too big dismiss? Once the Lebanese truely hold out a revolution and make some kind of constitutional law making a limit to politicians' terms - that is the day Lebanon will survive. When we have 'clean' political parties who have no history prior to 1990, in a variety to choose from, then i will have some hope for Lebanon. When we have young politicians who's election speeches contain everything they wish to acheive for the country - complemented by concrete initiatives rather than slandering and insulting other parties and their people, as well as using emotional speeches to patronise and intimidate them - then i will have some hope for the country.

On the other hand, if we continue to have the Jumblats who curse the Alawites when they want to, and respect them when it suits. To call syria terrorist when they want to, and when the call them brothers when it suits. To insult the Shia by inferring in every speech that they should be denied land and power when it suits and to respect and sympathise with them because of their history when they feel like it. Then this country will never progress.

The next revolution should not be to celebrate political affiliation. Lebanon has potential. If you conjoin M14 ideology and M8 ideology - at the same time crossing out the contradictions - you would pretty much end up with a political movement all could agree with. When you want to convinve a party to give up its weapons, you try and do it in the most loyal and honourable way - and their weapons and martyrs deserve it. Many young men gave up their whole youth and the rest of their potentially long life to save our country. Surely they deserve some respect and attention. You will not be able to convince them to disarm if they feel threatened and provoked according to what you say to the media and infront of large audiences.

Always, power of political parties comes from the people. Once you stop isolating those people and engage with them, help them, develop their communities - you could at least have some credibility from their side.

It's a fact in Lebanon that parties and groups tend to focus on their sects. Lebanese comes second and in some cases in inapropriate. This is shown by the simple fact that your religion and sect is on your identification cards. Its shown by the fact that key areas in Lebanon are known for their political affiliations. South, baalbeck, southern suburbs = shia. Tripoli, sidon and rest of beka = sunni. Jbeil, mountains and chouf = christian/druze minority.

This is a bigger problem than any Lebanese realise. Instead of treating the problems from their routes, we try to settle every problem at face value. When power wanes, we call for outside help. No nation can survive like that. I tell all Lebanese today - for your sake and your countries; Use everything every single one of you has achieved. Use Hezbollah's military and strategic power to your good. Use FPM's popularity among the Christian and their understanding with Hezbollah to gradually absorb it into the army. Use M14's proposals for major reforms and carry out those reforms to stop corruption. Use each others connections to the outside world - who happen to be enemies - to effectively create Lebanon as a neutral state. etc etc.

I dunno, you tell me if anything im saying is making sense.

[Ace]

Give the "chair" to Aoun - keep enough ministries to make sure that Aoun/HA/Syria cannot take total control of Lebanon. Justice must not be turned over to these clowns (never forget that's how Iran took control-with the courts,)and Syria will do what it will as always. Who thinks Syria really wants the volatile and very possibly ill Aoun as President? At the very least .... a couple of problems will be solved. Aounists will never stop until he is President and this is a fact, they would rather see Lebanon burn and they freely admit this. Give him the chair and try to protect the sovereignty from him ... that may be the best that you can do.

[Jeha]

Fubar,

"the lambs lose through attrition to the wolves"... I'm gonna use that.

And I like the Benedict Arnold analogy; very apt. The guy was a hero before his name became synonymous with treason; it was not money, his thing was vanity as well. I understand he died relatively poor, in the end.

So, now that we have ID'ed our Benedict Arnold, how do we find a Washington? Or do we need one?

[guess who?]

Lira and Lover,

This is not a democratic site, if you do not sing their never ending song, AK will threaten you both.

Anyway, go to this website and read an interesting blogger from Belgium, a freelance journalist based in Beirut http://middeno.wordpress.com/

What an observer !!

enjoy

[fubar]

Jeha,

I think right now, more than anything else, what you need is sheepdogs.

http://hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html

[ghassan karam]

Lover,
I'm afraid that your dissertation was unfocused, not very well thought out and eventually a weird mishmash of assertions that do not fit together to create a homogenous picture. Actually some of your suggestions are based on seriously flawed reasoning and contradictory premises.
May I humbly suggest that you rework your proposals by starting from scratch. Define democracy, its fundamental characteristics and then build a society that is capable of delivering on such promises. I am willing to bet that if you go through this exercise then you will not accept most of what you wrote about in your post. I am sure you will agree that a sustainable , just and democratic system cannot rest on incompatible ideas. Appeasement does not a democracy make, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

Back to the current assassination de jour. Only morons will argue that this wave of assassinations, resignations, impossible conditions, wars, intimidations and obstructions that has plagued this country for over two years are the normal result of random events. It is clear that someone has drawn a master plan to intimidate and prevent stability. No one has thus far presented a smoking gun but as is often the case cirumstantial evidence can be just as damning. HA and its allies have instigated every one of the destablizing events that the country has witnessed and HA has declared that it is proud of both its Syrian and Iranian connections, actually Mr. Nasrallah told the world that HA is an army that will do whatever it takes to protect Iran and its Mullahs. As for Syria, its current regime, unfortunately has demonstrated over and over again its desire to destablize a Lebanon that will not kowtow to its dictates.
I am confident that none of the readers need to be reminded about the list of particulars. It is clear, at least to this reader, that a very strong case can be made that Damascuss and Tehran are the root of all what is creating the instability in Lebanon. Let me immediately add that the Lebanese Judases, those who sell their services for thiry of silver belong in Dantes inner most circle.

That Syria and its agents are intent on creating instability and are determined to intimidate is not open to discussion. Syrian agents , just like suicide bombers, Nazi V2's and all terrorist activities aim to stifle normalcy, civil society through terror. If we are to deprive them their victory then we must, we really have no choice, carry on our daily activities, call the elections on time and refuse to be intimidated. We can demonstrate to them that their deadly and diabolical schemes will not work if we go about our daily business activities and take a clear stand in support of liberty and freedom the twin concepts that they fear the most.

[Solomon2]

fubar, I like that essay very much. It's a good analogy, with one exception: sheep may be sheep, but in a free society the soldiers take orders from the "sheep" or their elected representative. Sheepdogs, however, take their orders from the farmer who owns the sheep.

In other words, the democratic soldiers protect citizen-sheep so they can get fat and happy, period. The sheepdogs, however, protect the sheep so they can multiply, be sheared, and finally slaughtered for mutton when their blood and meat are more valuable than their wool and love.

A lot fewer sheepdogs are needed after that happens. Bu the farmer is a very happy man indeed.

[Bad Vilbel]

who's history is more savage, Israel's or Syria's?

I'm pretty sure the answer is Syria. And that's not really open for debate. When was the last time Israel leveled a city like Hama? (and that's just ONE example).
Syria has also killed more Palestinians in Lebanon in 30+ years than Israel has. And the list goes on.

[Bad Vilbel]

Ghassan,

Simple and logical. It is not that complicated to ask the simple question of "who benefits from an unstable Lebanon?" in the current context.

People continue to dance around that question (like Lover above) and obscure it with conspiracy theories.
The US and Israel currently stand to benefit from a stable Lebanon, willing to make peace with Israel (whether we like that or not is a different matter that I am not discussing here). Why on earth would they (Israel and co.) shoot themselves in the foot by sabotaging March 14? It makes no sense.

On the other hand, it benefits Syria supremely to prevent a Western leaning Lebanon, allied with the US and at peace with Israel. It also benefits Syria immensly to keep Lebanon unstable, or obedient, for a number of reasons that most of us already know, some regional, some economic, and some local. If I were Assad, I would want the same thing. He's doing exactly what is best for his regime. Can't really blame him for that.

We can choose to use logical thinking, the scientific method of deduction and rationality, to draw conclusions, or we can pretend the earth is flat, and unicorns can fly, and come up with any number of explanations with no basis in logic and rationality. For those of you who want to live in a land of unicorns, conspiracy theories, and a universe where the laws of logic and rationality, and even perhaps the laws of physics, are distorted or inexistant. Go right ahead. But don't insult us by pretending you're using logic and making sensible arguments. Go ahead and proclaim loud and proudly: "I believe in Unicorns, the earth is flat, and Israel and the Zionists are responsible for every ill that's ever befallen manking." And let's move on.

[Solomon2]

who's history is more savage, Israel's or Syria's?

The question is a digression, so let's make short shrift of it. Jordan is obviously a less bloody regime than Syria's, yet historian Bruce Thornton writes:

By some estimates, since World War II 25 million people have died in various conflicts. Eight thousand have resulted from the conflict between Israel and Palestinian Arabs, which ranks Israel forty-sixth on the list of lethal conflicts. (To put those 8000 in context, remember that Jordan killed many more Palestinians just during the “Black September” war of 1970.) Yet the U.N. has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than all the other forty-five combined. And let’s not forget that whatever violence Israel has used, or mistakes it has made, has resulted from its attempts to defend itself against much larger national armies and vicious terrorists driven by hatred to “wipe Israel from the map,” as the president of Iran has put it -

I suppose this discrepancy in perceptions can most easily be explained by the fact that anybody who voices aloud that Israel isn't much to blame is far more likely to feel the wolf at their throat than the sheep who stay huddled together and go "Baaaa" with everyone else.

[Jeha]

Fubar,

No need for additional expenses. Better to cut the middle man... er, the wolf.

[fubar]

Solomon,

"Sheepdogs, however, take their orders from the farmer who owns the sheep."

Yeah, that is why it is the perfect analogy for sectarian Lebanon. But don't forget, true sheepdogs just really like being sheepdogs and would protect the sheep from the wolves even if the farmer forgot or was unable to order them to.

Jeha,

lol. Agreed. However, there will always be other wolves wherever there are sheep. Sheepdogs are always a good idea.

[ghassan karam]

Fubar,
I am sure that you will not be disappointed to learn that I have very many serious reservations about the thrust of the essay that has captured the hearts and minds of the far right in the US like nothing else has before :-)

[anon]

The Israelis assasinated all the anti Syrians in Lebanon.Because as you all know :Israel works for the Syrian regime,do their bidding and promote Syrian interests in the region.

[Umm K.]

Guess who?

Who the hell has AK threatened? People who call others names, as Lover did by calling someone a "faggot" get threatened to be banned. When has AK threatened to ban someone just for having a different opinion? Learn how to read before you write--is that too much to ask from someone like you?

[Jeha]

Umm Kais,

Some people cannot think past basic anti-Americanism, no need to try and convince them. Others confuse foul mouth with free speech.

... And some words are bloodier than others; "Faggot" comes from the french word "Fagot" for a piece of wood used in pyres. Unfortunates who were accused of being "Queer" were burned alive to the stake. Hence another English word; "Flamer". People who throw insults often ignore the ugly history behind many of those words. Mentalities like this plague the Middle East and Africa.

It may that Beati Pauperes Spiritu, but they do not make it better for the rest of the world.

[Umm K.]

Thanks Jeha. AK ignores them for the most part...danshi wo bu neng wushi ta.

I've never liked that "F" word and I have lots of friends who do not like it also for obvious reasons. What a dreary history of the word!

I sometimes think the term "free speech" is as misunderstood and overused as the word "democracy".

[Shunkleash]

I am really getting worried for the safety of the other politcians (ie. those of M8) I mean they must also be scared since they could be next! I would say two or three may be under extreme danger specifically those belonging to the great leader whose name rhymes with Claoun. Imagine how such a travesty would open up the whole election process.

Please please please! I am in no way advocating a tit for tat policy but I must say I would be hard pressed to openly object to it...right away. I may first have to form a commission of inquiry appointing my 18 mth old daughter to lead it, and secondly and more importantly I would have to ask Mr Dark Side of The Moon at the UN to investigate "whodunit" before I could take a firm stand. Mind you, in order to sound "on top of things" I will immediately denouce it and call the syrian regime "cowards" and other nice things like that...and then go back to playing nintendo.

It is utterly disgraceful, that commentors to this blog find the time to give us lessons on moral equivalence, "fair play" etc. when their own countrymen are being vapourised by a demonic regime accross our border. AND RELAX im not talking about the JOOOOOOOS! It needs to stop, we all know why people are dying and we all know who is doing the killing. To play humpty dumpty or philosopher and pretend that turning a blind eye or not physically pushing a button equates to innocence and your hands are clean is to be dishonest and is repugnant to everyones sensibilities.

Anyway, it says volumnes that we (as a whole) can pretend to have a democratic process when we still allow political parties that have as their expressed goals the elimination of state in favour of a greater syria, or the introduction of the caliphate and sharia law for all along with the cult of khomeini (which by the way is unislamic).

Now take any other civilised country for example...you can have political parties that are labeled green, Dem, republican, conservative, ultra right, ultra left, neo-con, liberal, gay pride, Shaolin whatever...but overiding all of their stated goals is patriotism and GOD DAMN LOYALTY to the state...they should want to protect their own country and wish it to become a vassal.

Anyway, im becoming annoyed. I will leave you with one question--->after all that has been written on this matter can anyone actually say that events on the ground tell you that both sides to this blasted impasse have shown loyalty or patriotism to this little sniveling piece of shit land called lebanon? I think the plain answer is "no".

Ayesh little piece of shit land called Lebanon

Peace

[jay]

In case you haven't read this interview with Samir Nader, very interesting perspective given he's an former Aounist...
http://www.worldsecuritynetwork.com/showArticle3.cfm?article_id=14889&topicID=42

[Amir in Tel Aviv]

War of Lebanon.

Documentary in 9 parts. Arabic, English subtitles:

http://stage6.divx.com/History---Near-East/videos/group:20758
.

[Solomon2]

Lebanon has potential. If you conjoin M14 ideology and M8 ideology - at the same time crossing out the contradictions - you would pretty much end up with a political movement all could agree with.

Some of the commenters here simply dismiss these words, but Lover does appear to be the only one willing to reach out to the other side.

[ghassan karam]

Solomon2,
Let me be the first to say that your readings of what many on this blog have been saying is not accurate at all. Most will rejoice if the Lebanese will resolve the current impasse , form a democratic government that respects the law of the land and that has a monopoly on arms, a government that is guided by the principles of sovereignty, social justice and individual liberty. The personalities are not important, it is the ideas that matter. And that is the rub. The common good calls for compromises and sacrifices by all but it will be folly to commit an act of appeasement disguised as compromise. In that case all will be losers in the long run.
I am certain that any reading of many posts on this blog will reveal dissatisfaction with each and every member of the ruling March 14 at the same time that HA and its allies are being criticised. Actually I dare say that very few would want the current leadership to prevail. We have stated over and over again that the present crew does not have what it takes to deliver us to the promised land. Yet this does not mean that everything is negotiable. There must be in all circumstances a set of ideas and principles that are inviolable. These fundamentals in the case of a nation state should at least encompass the idea of sovereignty, individual liberty and the rule of law. If both parties can accept that then everything else is fair game. But you see HA is not in a position to make any meaningful commitments regarding these simple principles mentioned above. If it does, and I hope that it would, then it will no longer be HA. If on the other hand one is to appease HA for the sake of mere political expediency by pretending that we have shared fundamental values then that would be similar to agreeing to have the Pope , the Chief Rabbi and the head of Al Azzhar as founding members of a society whose aim is to promote and spread polytheism.

[Solomon2]

Most will rejoice if the Lebanese will resolve the current impasse , [1] form a democratic government that [2] respects the law of the land and [3] that has a monopoly on arms, a government that is guided by the principles of [4] sovereignty, [5] social justice and [6] individual liberty...it will be folly to commit an act of appeasement disguised as compromise. In that case all will be losers in the long run.

...There must be in all circumstances a set of ideas and principles that are inviolable. These fundamentals in the case of a nation state should at least encompass the idea of sovereignty, individual liberty and the rule of law. If both parties can accept that then everything else is fair game.

Lover, what do you have to say that might appease GK's concerns?

[another_someone]

"appease"?

Hahaha...

[fubar]

A very interesting piece in Argentina's Clarin today. Below is my quick, and a bit rough, translation. Admittedly Spanish is not my best language. If your Spanish is better, you can read it for yourself...
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2007/09/21/elpais/p-00301.htm

The decision of the Government [of Argentina] to take the question of the AMIA to the UN has put Argentina on the threshold of the escalation with Iran. The person in charge of the business of the Iranian Embassy in Buenos Aires and representing the regime in Argentina, Mohsen Baharvand, advised that if President Néstor Kirchner blames Iran before the United Nations, "many countries will understand that Argentina is in favor of the war".

Baharvand received Clarin in the Iranian diplomatic office. In one part of an hour long interview with Clarin, it was stated [by Baharvand]: "This is a year which is going to have many tensions in the General Assembly. For our country [Iran], this assembly is very important: it is going to show which countries are in favor of or against the war; which countries are in favor of or against Iran. It is possible that, in the event that President Kirchner accuses Iran, many countries will interpret that as Argentina is in favor of the war.”

Kirchner travels this weekend to New York to give his last speech as President before the 62nd General Assembly of the UN. His message takes a commitment assumed before the main Argentine Jewish organizations last July, in the days of the anniversary of the attack on the AMIA: to question Iran on its lack of cooperation in the investigation of the attack.

Kirchner will precede the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, amongst the speakers at the Assembly. According to protocol, both will share a small waiting room next to the main room for a few minutes.

The AMIA, in the past days, has redoubled its pressure on the Government so that Kirchner fulfills his promise. And it raised the stakes in search of a sanction from the UN on Iran, according to the model that the organization followed with Libya relative to her responsibility in the attack against the Pan Am flight that fell [crashed] in Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988. "We demanded that the diplomatic measures are taken that correspond to Iran. The hour has arrived at which the AMIA case is in the UN,” demanded Luis Grynwald, as a newspaper informed yesterday.

The Assembly of the UN, that meets Tuesday, appears at a moment under the specter of war - another one in the Persian Gulf threatening an attack on a massive scale by the United States against the Iranian military complex.

Argentina and its own Kirchner, in the last months of their mandate, appear involved in an unexpected way in that delicate scene.

"It is not necessary that President Kirchner does something thus," said Baharvand to Clarin. "As far as I know, the foreign policy between both countries has always maintained a balance. No judicial investigation has had as much influence on Argentine foreign policy. This file, however, has influenced it much. This government [Iran] observes that it is being accused, by public opinion, through a high civil employee of my country, and this repels in the bilateral relation", he added.

Baharvand denied that his country is refusing to cooperate in the investigation of the attack. "I never heard that the Argentine Government said that we did not cooperate. I have sent data officially to the Argentine Chancellery, and, if it wishes, we can verify that. Now, if we cooperated and it says that we did not do it, what is the sense of our cooperating?"

Argentine Justices considers that Iran has not lent cooperation in the cause. Iran appealed a decision of Interpol of last March, it objects to the propriety of the arrest warrants for five civil employees - according to Tehran - of the Iranian government for their responsibility in the attack. Justice hopes that in a meeting of Interpol in Morocco, in November, Interpol ratifies that [arrest] order.

"What can happen if Interpol confirms the orders? Nothing. It is not going to pass nothing,” Mohsen Baharvand said. “Argentina has overestimated the worth of paper of that organization [Interpol], the importance it has", he added.

The diplomat disqualified the investigation of the designated special public prosecutor in the case, Alberto Nisman, and demanded a just process. "We do not want speculations, rumors of the press, or policy. This is not the case of Nora Dalmasso, it is a subject between two countries that must be resolve with much care".

Baharvand, in addition, accused the main organizations of the Argentine Jewish community, the DAIA and the AMIA, of being uninformed [ignorant of all the facts?] and mounting a "nonofficial diplomacy" that has harmed the bilateral relations [of Argentina and Iran].

"This demand which they are making of the Government does not come from the Argentine town [meaning the Argentine people]. There are two small organizations who make nonofficial diplomacy against Iran by means of blackmail. International relations are now very delicate. Argentina is a favored country, but they can drag it towards a mistaken place."

[Lover]

Thank you Solomon for your earlier comment.

"Lover, what do you have to say that might appease GK's concerns?"

I would like to say something before I answer GK's 6 arguements, numbered by Solomon2. I believe that both M8 and M14 share the exact same goals, but have different policies to reach them - which is why I said that Lebanon has potention earlier on.

This was GK's comment, which I will answer categorically (reffering to each argument by number ofcourse):

"Most will rejoice if the Lebanese will resolve the current impasse , [1] form a democratic government that [2] respects the law of the land and [3] that has a monopoly on arms, a government that is guided by the principles of [4] sovereignty, [5] social justice and [6] individual liberty...it will be folly to commit an act of appeasement disguised as compromise. In that case all will be losers in the long run."

If you go back to GK's comment, you will see he emphasises on Hezbollah. Which is what I will do first before moving on to M14.

1) The Democratic Government. I believe government always reffers to the Executive, Judicial and Legislative branches. In this case, the Presidency, the Cabinet and Parliament. In 2005, Hezbollah entered into an agreement with M14. In away, each side controlled their victories and losses. Hezbollah and Amal decided to share the South half-half, some concessions were made which allowed the Phalange party win in the Metn, because no-one contested the only party running there and so on.

The results of the past election was totally reliant on the concessions made - by both sides and I stress this point. The parties which make up the opposition today were also given seats as good-will gesture back to them. This was not a one-way deal, the special example being the M14 majority voted an opposition member to become House Speaker.

Although, I believe everyone would agree that had there been no concessions the election results would have turned ouit different - at least not the same. Even though it's uncertain, but either side could have won had the elections been carried out without any bit of concession.

This concession has dropped today. Irrelevant from that point, today Hezbollah as an opposition member wishes another concession be made for the sake of the country. Or so they say. At the same time, the M14 side says no, arguing that 'seleting' the President other than through a free vote is undemocratic. This begs the question of why they did it during the 2005 elections. Hezbollah is democratic in the sense that it does not force its authority on anybody, does not force MP's - my point is that they are not dictating the country. They win MP's through participating in elections.

On the democracy, we have no problem. Nobody in Lebanon calls for democracy to be scrapped - although our democracy must be special in the sense that Lebanese must work together to finda solution that generates a win-win situation. Calling concessions and national unity presidents or cabinets undemocratic is false.

2) Respect of Law and Land. In my point of view, both M14 and M8, Hezbollah included, have done this in pretty much the exact same way.

This is a very big subject open to discussion, and before I get into the Hezbollah arms case, I want to discuss the other details. M8 held a massive demonstration on december 1 and 10 - I think on 10 I forgot the exact date. Until today they have a tent city with people exercising a sit-in. In a democracy both are allowed and totally legit. M14 did it before them - both the sit-in at baabda and demostration in downtown. The difference being the first worked and the second didn't. Though thats beside the point.

Hezbollah at the time did not call the any sit-ins as occupation of the sunnis or christians and so on. What M14 failed to do is realise the right of these people to do the same. By calling it an occupation - and add a little sectariasm by calling it a Shia occupation, it does not go down well with legit Lebanese citizens trying to do everything they can in a democratic and peaceful way to have their voice heard. With all respect to the man I'm going to quote now, may god have mercy on him, but I once heard Pierre Gemayel when interviewed by LBC abouth the size of the demonstration on March 8 and the sheer masses that were present - most noticeably at a time when Michel Oun was not part of the coalition with the opposition nor part of the demonstration. He said something which personally hurt - even though I did not support that demonstration. He bluntly told the interniewer that "it's not about quantity, it's about quality". With all due respect to this martyr and his achievements. I will leave to you to translate what it meant but to me it was clear. It was almost as like saying to someone you are not equal so anything you do, is only half as good as what we do - even if you had the greater number.

Moving on, the demonstrations held in December were legit in the sense that they had the permission from the Interior Ministry. This is what is so great about Lebanon. Whatever happens, mutual democracy still exists. We don't know any other way. The ministry ofcourse belongs to the government, and its minister is M14, and he still granted them a permission. And the same is true with the March 14 demonstration. They were given permission by the government to these people, knowing they were going to the streets to bring call their resignation and protest against it.

Then comes all the violence that followed these. Whether the violence came from this side or that, it's clear that members of both sides were involved. This is what happens when politicians start insulting each other. BUT. I still think they were democratic and PEACEFUL in intention. Nasrallah didn't order this guy to kill that guy, and neither did Saad Harriri call for that person to shoot the other. These were the consequence of natural tensions raised until breaking point. Both Hassan Nasrallah and Harriri did everything at hand to stop these from occuring - despite the accusations. Hezbollah even placed some of their private security men (which is neither undemocratic nor unconstitutional - there is a service called security which is legally allowed to be provided by a private company) to stop any violence or intimidation (especially by taking all Hezbollah flags from supporters to avoid tension).

Finally, to the (3) arms monopoly + (4) sovereignty bit concerning Hezbollahs militant presence. Please read my words carefully to avoid confusion. Hezbollah has had a long-time agreement with the government, including the present one, to legitimise its weapons (please keep reading). Since the Taef until, and after, 2005. Hezbollah, in order to protect Lebanon from an invading Israel had to be seperate from the Lebanese army. Thats the whole point of a resistance being what it is. The army was too corrupt and weak (as people say, with Syrian infestation and lack of weaponry or effective training) to protect Lebanon from Israel. Also, if Lebanons army engages with Israel, they would be wiped off the map - with all due respect to the admired heroism of Lebanese soldiers. It is a simple fact that today, with all technological developments, we have entered a time of 'post-heroic' wars and conflicts. A laser-guided bomb can not be stopped by any human person physically, however heroic he or she is. You simply can't. You need anti-aircraft to stop these bombs being dropped, jamming systems to make them miss the target or some kind of anti-missile defence system - or mayb an air-force. We, in Lebanon, have none. The only way to fight with an excessively strong and technologically developed army, we must fight it using assymetric guerilla warfare seperate from the states regulated army. If the army intervenes, then this is a state vs state war, allowing Israel to annex captured land and giving it the right to wipe Lebanon off the face of the Earth. This is the sad reality.

As the French did before us, we are doing today. We are not an exeption in this world with having Hezbollah. The French army was obliterated by the German army - the French resistance showed up and bogged down the German army until the British and Americans came to drive it out. France later on called it the Nation Resistance and gave it a special status of being a division of the army - but independent and seperate from the state. France survives today and is co-existing perfectly with their independent resistance (and yes, they did get their weapons and financial support from outside countries).

The only difference with us is that we are still at war - official war with an enemy state. Hezbollah is against it's weapons staying forever and so are many Lebanese - if not most, if not all. Another difference is that our resistance is preposterously powerful, effective, efficient, internationally legal and domestically within the legal framework. I say the latter because, if you go back to May 25 2000, you will remember quite clearly that all the agents arrested by Hezbollah were not detained by some kind of Hezbollah police force. They were handed to the Lebanese legal system to be tried, sentences and punished according to how the state finds apropriate. This also happened during the 2006 war with the large network of 50 or so agents from Sudanese and Iraqi origin - as well as Lebanese - being uncovered and handed to the Lebanese legal system - and not slaughtered or tried according to the party's system.

Now. The solution. We all want the solution. I tell you from now, intimidating Hezbollah is not the solution. Sadly, M14 i doing just that. Being called a traitor to the country and a foreign agent working for personal interest and power by your own fellow countrymen whom you fought to protect for decades, giving blood, time, effort and souls without them recognising this - even though the rest of the world does - is not a nice experience.

Hezbollah I believe is like an injured heroic child (sorry if I offend someone but don't take the allergy literaly). You need to identify and recognise its heroism, thank it for this heroism, commemorate it then give it some breathing time and approach it respectively and open up the file of the need to give up the arms. Don't even call it give up the arms. A child is never keen to give up its favourite toy (i know, i know my metaphores suck). Make a concession with it to please you and it. Today, it's the plan to integrate it with the army. Convince it in integrating with the army, provide it factual and political garantees, draw up a strategic plan for the future - and do it all in an honourable fashion and Hezbollah will do so with all confidence. But the regular fighter - who refuses to be intimidated or opressed by the fourth strongest but most cruel army in the world with nuclear capability will not allow himself personally to be dragged into the army if it's by force and intimidation. The plan wouldn't work like that because the normal Hezbollah militant would simply retire before he is made to do anything without it being willingly or honourably. Do you see my route of thought? Things as large as this need time, patience and attention.

As for the Palestinian militants, just as the government and army so skillfuly did in the last battle at Nahr Al-Bared (and this point make evident that the government is capable of doing the same with Hezbollah), it provided a fair balance between going in to hunt down terrorists, without angering the Palestinians, without causing a new camp war and all of this even though it entered a place it couldn't in decades. These are balances which the government and the army kept in check - a task even the American government and its army (which incidently is the most powerful) couldn't do in any conflict they have engaged in. Meet with the main Palestinian leaders who have the biggest popular voice and carry out the concessions and guarantees that never again do they sustain 3000 casualties in one day of slaughter by anybody.

5 + 6) Social justice and liberty. Both camps pretty much stuck to it. Hezbollah never once denied anyone their liberty or have justice.

There is only one point I would like to make. The governments (not current but every single one) negligence of people living in the south, whom happen to be Shia, and admittedly - to shia's in general, concerning Baalbeck and Dahyeh.

Hezbollah has been the only benefitory to these people. The same applies to poor Chritians. Warlords and ex-militias - unfortunately - are the main supporters of these people. And again, unfortunately - any unlucky person happening to be poor, living outside beirut and not covered by a political party is foresaken.

This is the biggest and largest flaw in our system - Democracy, social justice and personal liberty. The bigest human right, is ofcourse the right to live. If I could make one change to the UN Charter concerning the Human Rights (or Geneva Conventions), it would be the right to live in dignity with governmental support if needed. If Hezbollah was today to vanish, people would die of hunger. Illiteracy would reach record levels. Disease would spread. Sickness would take its toll in unprecedented numbers. An outright disaster and i'm not being sarcastic - and im also talking about the social Hezbollah not militant one.

Lebanon needs to fix this - urgently. This is why it is important to have Hezbollah part of government. Before any M14's start cheering, I do not mean the blame falls on Hezbollah. The blame falls on whoever is leading government at any given time and is not correcting their attitudes, behaviour and policy towards Hezbollah and succeed in making them part of government. The Lebanese people are what make Hezbollah up. The combatants are Hezbollah. Their nurses are Lebanese. Their scholars and MP's are Lebanese. Their engineers and company employees are Lebanese. This is my personal evidence bank that Lebanon through its population CAN provide as well as guarantee the common well-being of Lebanons citizens.

An alternative is for the Lebanese state to act on initiative and find a solution (economic, social and militant terms). This would be even better because then it would be easier to draw in Hezbollah and its crowds, simply because of its decreasing necessity to the Lebanese population which supports it because of its social and strategic importance.

There is nothing better than co-operation. The EU has done it before us. 27 countries all talking their own languages and have their own cultures. They succeeded in creating a mega-state. Lebanon is 4million people big, no-one can convince me this small number which shares the same language, values and culture can not pull it off. The solution is already their, but the willingness in peoples leader isn't. Maybe they want a pay-rise.

[Hazbani]

As an Israeli all I can say to Lover and others. I hope things will work for you. And I hope you will have free deomcratic land, your way not Bush or any other way. As for social security for all Lebanese well I hope it will work too. As for the rest. The French analogy is wrong and I hope it will stay wrong. There was a German army in Paris. Most French people did not fight it. The underground was mostly a minority affair. It took the USA and UK to liberate France. The very same USA and UK and now France that are now talking about free independat Lebanon. As for Israel, talk is free so I do not mind if you call me names. But please do not try to eat your cake and have it too. Hizb. is part of Lebanon. Hizb. is a part of the armed forces of Lebanon. Any war that Hizb. or any body else living in Lebanon will make is was and will be a Lebanese war. Any peace will be a Lebanese peace. I hope it will be peace.

[whywesteppin]

Lover, you make some good arguments, but a major flaw is this:

Why should a military group get to make political decisions? If Hezbollah is truly the legal resistance that is needed to protect Lebanon from Israel, then they should not be involved in politics. Or, if they want to involve themselves in politics, it should be to bring about fair election laws that will be used to elect politicians who are NOT Hezbollah representatives.

Also, you call for asymmetric warfare, but why do we need warfare to begin with?

[Lover]

whywesteppin

Your criticism is well-intentioned.

I will answer with an opinion which doesn't need to be the truth - you can counter my argument and convince me otherwise.

I think that the fact Hezbollah engaged in politics is a good sign. This sign mirrors Hezbollahs willingness to be active on the Lebanese field and not become some kind of armed group which is blind to everything and sees nothing other than the soil under it. In other words, nobody wants a 'JIHAD JIHAD JIHAD' group on their soil.

Since it's a political group, you can bargain with it and make concessions. If it doesn't have a political group, then its political ideology would never be clear and it would be much more dificult to distinguish between what it favours and what it doesn't.

Also, I do not CALL for assymetric warfare, I obviously WISH there was no war at all. For the better. but grim reality is not the case. We face direct threat and we need something to counter this threat, in case conflict happens. We also have a right to return - prisoners and land. Israel would never be quiet if any Arab country captured its land - why should we?

As for Hazbani. I have many Israeli friends - born and bred in Israel. It is the only nation they know of and the only country they feel affiliation to and pride of. Please don't get me wrong. I am against Israeli agression through its political echelon and brutal administrations trying to prove their loyalty to the American far-right. That is my problem. They tend to portray brutality to prove it. My problem is not with Israeli civilians. Most did not invade Palestinians nor kill any or steal their homes. A select few have.

Unfortunately, Israeli civilians will end up caught in the cross-fire, which to a small resistance, is a necessity to end an aggressive offensive which is killing hundreds and sometimes thounsads of it's civilian population at a time. You feel the anger and sadness of a few dozen of your fellow innocent civilians being brutally killed in an unnecesary war - now try feeling what the Lebanese feel when they see their country crumbling apart right infront of their own eyes and witnessing the death of thousands of their fellow citizens. This time we were lucky - i think - to escape with 1,200 deaths. 1982 cost Lebanon 30,000 civilians - costing a whole 1% of the population. That's America loosing 3million civilians.

Thank you

[ghassan karam]

Lover,
It is so clear to even the most casual of observers that we are talking about completely two different visions of reality and that what separates is an immense void that does not stand a good chance of being bridged.
I am essentially speaking about fundamental principles that need to be present in order to make the democratic project legitimate while you seem to be interested in only spinning some details concerning this party and that group.
What we are discussing is reminiscent of those that waste their precious time and effort in order to rediscover the wheel. It is sad that in the year 2007 we still need to go ahead and spell out the basis without which democracy cannot exist.One can posit that such ideas are not commensurable and that is probably true but no one can define a democracy as a system that is not built on the notion of total respect for individual human rights, freedom of the press, the principle of one person one vote, rule of law, rule by the majority, equal rights to all including minorities etc... All what you have to do is say whether you are willing to accept each and every one of these principles without any equivocation and no spin. If our intention is creating this civil society then no one has a choice but to subscribe fully to these inviolable and fundamental principles. Once both sides are willing to make such a commitment then all what appears to be unsolvable will disappear. Short of that the stand off will continue until HA accepts the rules of the game if it wants to play. If on the other hand HA refuses to abide by the rules of the game then it will have to force everybody else to give up on this game and adopt HA vision. And that is very highly unlikely.

[Jeha]

To add to Ghassan's comment;

To think that the fact that Hezb is "engaged in politics is a good sign" is naive. Involvement in a game does not mean acceptance of the rules. I fear that we will all be soon forced to "adopt HA vision", and this means changing the game.

This is how the current democracy civil tensions will turn into a civil war.

[Shunkleash]

Mr. Lover(man),

Some people don't like it when I rant but for you I have to make a special effort. To be as blunt as possible...hizbteezee does not belong to or in lebanon. They do not represent lebanon nor the lebanese. They have never fought for nor have their "martyres" ever died for lebanon or the lebanese. They have been the root cause of 90% per cent of trouble on our southern border with israel. NOW!, reading your post was tedious and frustrating since I cannot for the life of me even begin to fathom the innner workings of a mind that has the time and temerity to share this bit of putrid irrelvance with the rest of us-->

"Now. The solution. We all want the solution. I tell you from now, intimidating Hezbollah is not the solution. Sadly, M14 i doing just that. Being called a traitor to the country and a foreign agent working for personal interest and power by your own fellow countrymen whom you fought to protect for decades, giving blood, time, effort and souls without them recognising this - even though the rest of the world does - is not a nice experience."

THIS horseshit(inclusive of metaphores and allergies) followed;
"Hezbollah I believe is like an injured heroic child (sorry if I offend someone but don't take the allergy literaly). You need to identify and recognise its heroism, thank it for this heroism, commemorate it then give it some breathing time and approach it respectively and open up the file of the need to give up the arms. Don't even call it give up the arms. A child is never keen to give up its favourite toy (i know, i know my metaphores suck). Make a concession with it to please you and it. Today, it's the plan to integrate it with the army. Convince it in integrating with the army, provide it factual and political garantees, draw up a strategic plan for the future - and do it all in an honourable fashion and Hezbollah will do so with all confidence. But the regular fighter - who refuses to be intimidated or opressed by the fourth strongest but most cruel army in the world with nuclear capability will not allow himself personally to be dragged into the army if it's by force and intimidation. The plan wouldn't work like that because the normal Hezbollah militant would simply retire before he is made to do anything without it being willingly or honourably. Do you see my route of thought? Things as large as this need time, patience and attention."

Then this smelly thing came along and gagged me;
"I think that the fact Hezbollah engaged in politics is a good sign. This sign mirrors Hezbollahs willingness to be active on the Lebanese field and not become some kind of armed group which is blind to everything and sees nothing other than the soil under it. In other words, nobody wants a 'JIHAD JIHAD JIHAD' group on their soil."

and finally this anal leakage offended me;
"This time we were lucky - i think - to escape with 1,200 deaths. 1982 cost Lebanon 30,000 civilians - costing a whole 1% of the population. That's America loosing 3million civilians."

I suppose you are a conspiracy buff or better yet, secret agent 0019 with all the info on your handy pocket watch OR, like so many others who have helped to put us in this mess, you suffer from selective amnesia. To complete your dosier and update you pocket watch DOUBLE ZERO I have pleasure in making the following points:-

As to Putrid irrelavance
1. Hizbteezee sole reason for having or even accepting any part to play in the "politics" in lebanon was due to a discreet threat of violence (M8 come to mind)and to ensure that they do their masters bidding (hint: Syria and Iran). "blood, time and effort", WHAT are they mechanics or something? The point is Hizbteezee ARE traitors to this country FULL STOP! They certainly can NOT be called my fellow countrymen! MY FELLOW countrymen would not do what they have done TO MY COUNTRY! I however agree we need a solution. We must KILL IT like you would kill a cancer. Chop off its head! Yalla, you take away its means of existence (ie money laundering, graft, bribery, protection rackets, diplomatic suitcases full of cash, etc etc) and poof...your beautiful little tree stump will wither away and die a slow and agonising death.

As to horseshit
2. CONCESSIONS!? INTEGRATION!? Integrating gangsters into the army is perilous at best and defeats the purpose of neutralising an armed gang of thugs and miscreants who for the most part are intent on imposing a theocracy on lebanon(how I know? I have a crystal ball). Imagine, a whole division of iranian republican guards in the lebanese army WOW PEACE IN OUR TIME BABY! Why the hell would I or anyone else want to coddle them and give them lollipops for doing what is EXPECTED in any normal civilised society hmmm? OR do you believe that our society has not yet become civilised enough?

As to smelly thing
3. Hizbteezee has never been engaged in politics in lebanon! It is present as a spoiler. It does want to waste time with politics and stupid things like "the rule of law" or respect of the majority. By the by, "become?" "become?" "become?" You mean hizbteezee IS NOT already some kind of armed group which is blind to everything and sees nothing other than the soil under it. In other words, a 'JIHAD JIHAD JIHAD' group on our soil. Thanks for clearing that one up...

As to anal leakage
4. Oh boy did we ever ESCAPE! Thank god hizbteezee was able to protect us from Israel. In fact I recall when I was blowing up half of beirut(to make them look bad of course) that they were shooting down israeli planes and producing home movies of babies being pulled from the rubble of buildings that were used as cover for rocket launchers. YA JAHASH! the 1200 deaths in lebanon were as a direct result of hizbteezee and that piece of shit nasrallah deciding to go to war with Israel. By the way, they are not numbers for you and the other fuck sticks in hizbteezee to play with! They were real people, real men, real women, and real children, ALL with real aspirations that hizbteezee decided were expendable in their numbers game. But alas you knew that...piece of advice, perhaps you might like to try eating your baked kibbee with a little less hash;

After all of your nonsense, you still have not addressed the question of WHY does hizbteezee need to rearm and BOAST about it? Does it plan to blow up the litani? or kill those evil infidel unifil troops who are defending israel? ooops sorry the conspiracy theory RIGHT forgot...ITS the JOOOOOOOS MAN and the AMERKEN AGENDA...my bad bruh!

Fortunately, people like you have already missed the train, bus AND TAXI and will miss the world when it walks by. Lebanon, for all its disgusting habits and faults, can not an will not remain the same. For your information, the political status quo will NOT survive when all is said and done and hence you wil be out of the propaganda business.

You will notice from my response that I have decided to dismiss you comletely as a fraud, propagandist, a novice and suffering from a nasrallah fetish. Being a good sport however, I wish you luck in your future efforts and hope you find relief from your allergies.

Ayesh Lubnan!

[ghassan karam]

I am just wondering whether it is only me or whether others share my sense of total revulsion whenever they read such headlines as " Beri to let MP's meet...". What is going on? Why is the Speaker permitted to behave as if the Chamber of Deputies is no more than his own "dukan"? I often get the uncomfortable feeling that no one in the Lebanese government thinks of themselves as servants of the people who are paying their salaries and to whom they owe their allegiance.

In the midst of a financial, social, political and economic crisis the President feels that it is his divine obligation to head a delegation of close to a hundred individuals to that he can travel to NY and give a five minute speech tp a virtually empty room at the UN but at a cost of over a million dollars to the poor Lebanese tax payer. Even minister Safadi, whom I have praised over the last year or so, seems to be much more concerned with going to a boat show in Monaco rather than the turbulent developments rocking Lebanon. Has it ever occurred to anyone that if we want a country then maybe we have to deserve it. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

[fubar]

Ghassan,

If you are trying to start a conversation...

How about what should M14 do when Parliament meets, 2/3 quorum or not?

Not what will they do which is nothing until 10 days before Lahoud's term is to expire.

Maybe they should vote now to put their vote on record before the next murder in the assiNation. There are pros and cons to it worth discussing, like do they have a united 50% + 1, and is recording the vote worth it in terms of the life expectancy of the M14 President-elect.

[ghassan karam]

Fubar,
March 14 should get all their "flock' to attend the Tuesday meeting and force a vote if they can. The real test of Beri's intentions will also be on the line in two days from now. I have not spent any time on doing the counting myself but if the press reports are accurate then the 68 votes of March 14 plus the 14 Amal MP's will be only 3 short of the 2/3 quorum. Maybe they can find these three votes from among the non-alligned, are there any? I figure that there must be around ten. Anyway as I have indicated many times over the past few months it is clear that the first round must be a 2/3 quorum but not the next rounds. I am still of the opinion that March 14 will be better off if they agree on a candidate that shares their vision but is not closely associated with them. That will improve the likely hood of garnering more votes for a president that will not be viewed as being divisive from the start. March 14 will still get the PM , provided the assiNation ( I like this compound word, I have never seen it before :-))can put its act together. Would Syria back off after it has gone this far? I doubt it and that is one more reason to elect a president ASAP with the most votes possible. To wait until early November might turn out to be very costly.It is time to deliver the country from its misery.

[fubar]

"plus the 14 Amal MP's will be only 3 short of the 2/3 quorum"

Don't jump the gun there. Amal's ministers may be in their offices on Tuesday but they will not go into the chamber, especially not to create a quorum for a vote.

Did you see that Chibli Mallat is suggesting that the Presidential vote be held at the UN? (Daily Star) How sad is that? But then what more needs to be said than -- assiNation (I did not think of it, I saw it somewhere but I don't recall where now. But it struck me as horrendously appropriate).

[Shunkleash]

Fubar and Ghassan

Just a quick query...with all of his manouvering is Berri going to insist on the role of the "good shepherd" and seek reappointment as speaker? GK, whereas i see the rationale of your argument of a president who shares their vision but not associated with M14, I beleive that three posts must either be filled directly from the majority or from an independent...A new PM preferably a technocrat, a new president(preferrably one whos mouth can't swallow an apple whole) and the speaker. If we can't be assured of these then the whole process is just an exercise in futility.

What you guys think?

[ghassan karam]

Shunkleash,
I am still hopeful that March 14 will prevail but that does not mean in any way that I am very hopeful in the ability of the clowns in Lebanon to lay strong foundations for a modern democratic republic.
If we are to avoid a hollow victory then we have no choice but to adopt some radical changes all throughout the political system as you suggest. Would I bet on it? Let me hedge my answer by saying hope spring eternal. As the ad for Lotto says:"You have got to be in it to win it". But to be in it we have to go through the course one step at a time.

[fubar]

Sir Shunkleash the dragonslayer,

1. First things first, Romeo still doesn't know what the hell hit him. LOL

2. Of course Berri will want to retain his official position as Speaker. Postmaster General is nice, but not as terribly powerful as it once was in the area of thought control, given the internet and cell phone age and all. Only in the assiNation is it possible to be an absolute partisan, a mailbox, and an arbitrator!

3. The whole thing is an exercise in futility. Hezbollah will never give up its weapons voluntarily. Assuming M14 got the Presidency, a PM and cabinet, and a reasonably intelligent and agreeable Speaker, what then? M14 still cannot make Hezbollah give up its weapons. Hezbollah knows every move M14 makes before M14 makes it. State institutions are heavily infiltrated. There will be war. The only question is when. All this jockeying around is just to pass the time while hopefully delaying the inevitable. But before you throw up your arms in disgust, remember, war is hell, people on all sides die, and there is no guarantee of who will win. No one can blame M14 for attempting to delay it as long as possible. And sometimes, intervening miracles do happen.

[Lover]

"First things first, Romeo still doesn't know what the hell hit him. LOL"

No, Fubar. No-one hit me by surprise. To find out a religion I believed in for so long is bullshit (and for that case every other religion included), I was not dazed. Why would I be from an arrogant persons comment?

I just think that the fact that I am being respectful and seriously trying to open a mature debate into the serious political crisis in Lebanon - a political crisis that has cost lives and is pretty much shrouded with question marks.

I answer every one of you in respect, but some seem to think that the idea of blasting me with curses and offensive remarks is a good idea just because I hold a certain ideology or political angle, that sir, I don't find funny.

It seems to me that some here are not here to analyse, discuss and argue (maturely) about this, but rather nod at whoever agrees with them or shares the same views, while insulting the 'different' ones.

If it is so hard to tolerate someones political views - which of mine are quiet reasonable and moderate since I do not support or denounce any group for sectarian reasons but self-conviction from blatant reason - but instead cursing those of different political views all the while calling for the long life of the democratic Lebanon. It seems that they want a democracy in Lebanon - but a democracy with only one political colour. That's fine, but the word you are looking for isn't democracy, it's fascism.

And if you didn't realise that beforehand, then it's all the worse.

[fubar]

Romeo,

Respectful? You don't know the meaning of the word.

"If you keep pointing your finger at Syria without any basis, then more and more of you are going to die you fucking idiots" -- Posted by: Lover | Wednesday, September 19, 2007 at 12:39 PM

That is from your first post on this thread. You think that calling people "fucking idiots" is respectful?

"What conspiracy theories you faggit." -- Posted by: Lover | Wednesday, September 19, 2007 at 12:59 PM

That is from your second post on this thread. You think that calling someone a "faggot" is respectful?

"I just think that the fact that I am being respectful and seriously trying to open a mature debate..."

"I answer every one of you in respect..."

-- Posted by: Lover | Monday, September 24, 2007 at 07:50 PM

Either you don't know the meaning of the words "respect" and "mature debate" or you are being purposefully deceitful.

"If it is so hard to tolerate someones political views - which of mine are quiet reasonable and moderate since I do not support or denounce any group for sectarian reasons but self-conviction from blatant reason - but instead cursing those of different political views all the while calling for the long life of the democratic Lebanon."

Posted by: Lover | Monday, September 24, 2007 at 07:50 PM

"Cursing those of different political views"...that is very rich, Romeo. Your first comment includes calling commenters "fucking idiots", your second comment includes calling a commenter a "faggot" but now you are are concerned that someone else curses you. Cowboy up, Romeo. You started it, don't start crying when you get back what you spew out.

"To find out a religion I believed in for so long is bullshit (and for that case every other religion included), I was not dazed." -- Posted by: Lover | Monday, September 24, 2007 at 07:50 PM

Good luck in your journey, Romeo. Religion or no religion, you may find that treating others with respect is more likely to result in your being treated with respect in return.

And, no, the commenters on this blog are not in support of fascism, they are in support of democracy where people are free to express differing points of view - RESPECTFULLY.

One final point. You have offended Umm Kais (not to mention others). A mature and honorable person, having unintentionally caused offense, would apoligize. An immature person without honor should just move along and find another blog to comment on. Apparently, this has not yet occurred to you, but now that you know, we will all see which of the two you are and respond to you accordingly.

[JoseyWales]

Arrogance, ignorance and sanctimony.

Very bad combination.

[Lover]

ou know what fubar, you are right. Political talk mixed with emotional appeal all the while being ignored in favour of more extreme (in my view) ideological talk agravates anger.

I apologise for being insulting to anyone. I'm an impatient person who hates being told the same thing over and over again - even after you have tried everything to convince them otherwise.

You will see that I did clean up my act after those first two shameful entries.

Again, I apologise. My intentions behind my arguments are honestly good - I want a Lebanon political free if you like. Lebanon - Switzerland of the Middle East, is the Lebanon I want. The neutral country which is mutually respected by all and utmostly and primarily defended by al lits inhabitants. How this Lebanon ended up another Iraq I don't know. I want it back to what it was - I just want to know that if I visit my country, I won't be blown up for a senseless "cause" or dragged into war.

Again, I'm sorry fellow compatriots.

[Lover]

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