Lebanese army taking control of Nahr El Bared

The Lebanese army is saying that it has made major advances against the Fatah al-Islam gang in the Nahr El Bared camp,  seizing an ammunition cache and detaining one of the terrorists' medic, Omar Abu Merssi. The National News Agency is reporting that the group's spiritual advisor, Haitham al-Saadi, has surrendered to the army this afternoon.

Fatah's al-Islam's fighting power has diminished in the past two days, an army officer told AFP. The armed forces have been bombarding the group's positions from land, sea, and for the first time today, air. A Gazelle helicopter, one of many acquired recently, was seen firing several rockets at Fatah al-Islam positions in the west sector of the camp.

The army believes Abu Merssi knows the whereabouts of Fatah al-Islam leader Shaker al-Abssi and his deputy Abu Hureira. The seized ammunition cache was said to be large, proving that "this terrorist gang has destructive objectives," an army statement said.

Comments

[ghassan karam]

Now that this episode is over and the LAF has performed well does this send a message of sorts to Ahmad Jibreel, Jund Al Sham , Al Ansar etc... Maybe this is the opportune time to implement 1559 by starting the disarming process , a group at a time. I will not be surprised if we learn that the losses among FAI turn out to be much more than what has been reported thus far. The morale of the army must be very high and I hope that they continue to perform their duties well, maybe this outcome will embolden Saniora and Sa'ad Hariri to take stronger stands. I cannot help myself, I have to say this for the hundredth time, there is no room for HA in the cabinet. Their representatives have been elected fair and square to the parliament but their place is in the opposition, a loyal and constructive opposition. But Ha and loyalty to the Lebanese state is a contradiction in terms:-)

[Charlie]

Ghassan,

"there is no room for HA in the cabinet"

There is no room for HA in Lebanon...

Time to take the fight to PFLP-GC...It will be a tougher and harder fight, but it is one that has to be done...

[Bad Vilbel]

+1 to the above 2 statements.

[Bad Vilbel]

Not to go too far off subject, but there are some parallels here if you look deeper:

Today Abbas dismissed his government and declared a state of emergency. While Gaza is all but fallen to Hamas, look for a split to happen in the Palestinian territories.

A pro-western government will emerge in the West Bank, and (mark my words) word is of a confederation with Jordan happening very soon. The Badr Brigades will be entrusted with cleaning up the WB and stamping out Hamas before it has a chance to take root there.

Look for Gaza to go its own way, for now, under Hamas, with possible Egyptian involvement, sooner rather than later, once everyone agrees that Hamas there needs to be crushed to smithereens for any chance at peace.

[ghassan karam]

I share the prognostication regarding the split and even the federation between the West Bank and Jordan.
The events in both the Gaza strip and Lebanon appear to have been coordinated by the Syrian/Iranian masters in their bid to gain hegemony in the region and to deliver on Bashars' threat to put the region on fire once the International Tribunal was enacted. I am glad that so far the outcome in both arenas has frustrated the Syrian/Iranian master plans. I had been counting on such an outcome for some time, that is why I have refused to believe that HA /Hamas will ever be allowed to become victorious. Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that the troubles are over but I tend to think at the moment that the PFLP-GC; Ahmad Jibreel: might be Syrias last resort. It looks as if they have tried everything else and failed. Heres to a crushing defeat of Jibreel if he is to try and flex his Syrian muscles.

[Louis-Noel Harfouche]

Ha ha! It seems that the Palestinians finally GOT their two-state solution: one in the West Bank (with a capital in East Jerusalem), and another in Gaza (this one an Islamist Swaziland that, if Dennis Ross's fears materialize, will radiate and proliferate clone states throughout the region.) Allah yestur! But as Michel Fugain once said "les premiers 2000 ans sont toujours les plus difficiles." Things will improve though!

[Bad Vilbel]

Indeed Ghassan, our trouble are not over yet. But today's events in Gaza, are, I think, a step in the right direction. It is high time the Saniora government took a page from Abbas's book (as wretched as that may seem right now) and nip things in the bud.

What I am afraid of, in Gaza, is the inevitable "mediation" that will ensue following Hamas' victory, under, I'm sure, the auspices of Saudi Arabia or the Arab League, to try and bring Abbas and Hamas back to the table (with Hamas dictating much of the demands). Better, at this point, to tell Hamas and co. "Go to hell".
They've been strung along far enough. Let them fend for themselves without political cover of the Palestinian Authority. Let the Gaza descend into chaos until the people there cheer on an Egyptian intervention as saviors.

As for us in Lebanon, the same logic applies. Enough appeasment and enough extending olive branches. Let Hezb and co. "go to hell" and go about running our state our own way.

Louis,

I can't imagine a Hamas-controlled Gaza will be allowed to live long if it doesn't have a legitimate political cover. It won't be long before either Israel or Egypt "invades".

[Craig]

I can't imagine a Hamas-controlled Gaza will be allowed to live long if it doesn't have a legitimate political cover. It won't be long before either Israel or Egypt "invades".

I don't think Israel will invade - not with the intent of staying, anyway. Anybody who occupies Gaza is also responsible for trying to provide some sort of security, and I doubt Israel want to do that. Egypt, maybe. But only if Gaza becomes a major problem for Egypt.

[Bad Vilbel]

Yes. My bet is on Egypt.
It WILL become a security problem for Egypt. It already is. The border is porous at best. Egypt has to worry about a Hamas controlled Gaza becoming a haven for Muslim Brotherhood types. Israel and Egypt have common interests there and common borders. That little swath of land will not allowed to continue festering once the political cover of it being "the legitimate government of the Palestinians" goes away.

Think about it, the ONLY reason Israel hasn't invaded already, after all the attacks, is because they know they'd be accused of undermining Oslo and whatever peace plan is at hand. The ONLY reason Egypt doesn't retake Gaza (which was under Egyptian control pre-67) is to keep alive the notion of a State of Palestine.

Once both those pretexts are gone (because a legitimate government of Palestine exists in the West Bank), all bets are off in Gaza.

[Charlie]

I don't think Israel will go on invading Gaza again. It is better for them to stay on the outside and deliver sever punishment to Hamas when they lob their useless rockets. The upshot to all this is that the Syrians are playing their last card. All these escalations by the Syrian stooges around the Mideast now proves the Syrians have lost it and have grown very desperate. If the moderate forces in the area continue to collaborate and work together, then they will win the day and the Syrian empire of thugs would be sized down a great deal…There is hope after all….:-)

[ali bm]

there is an element of irony here, especially in BV comments about the PA providing political cover for Hamas. i ask you this: what political cover has been provided so far? if you look at the palestinian constitution, Hamas is the Palestinian authority because of its victory in the legislative elections. yet what cover or gains did they make from these sole democratic elections in the whole of the Arab world? none.

instead Fatah started playing dirty [similar to the syrian role here] and they started undermining Hamas and egging on the israelis and international community to boycott the Hamas government. but when the saudis interfered and put an end to the first round of fighting, the egyptian felt left out so they contacted their local boy in Gaza Dahlan and hence the fighting was reignited until we reached the current situation.

for all of you guys talking about democracy and free elections, consider what you have here: a democraticaly elected government prevented from ruling by the international community with Arab complicity and with the help of local thugs (Dahlan and co).

Fatah has no support left on the ground, as witnessed in its quick collapse in Gaza so unless they resort to traditional Arab democracy, i don't see them winning any future elections. as for the federacy between jordan and the west bank, i'll let u consider this: will the hasemite playstaion king want to increase the % of palestinians in his population from 60% now to 90% if the west bank is included? especially as we are talking here about largely untamed palestinians with lots of militancy and weapons. remember the jordanian throne's experience in 1970, i bet they are not anxious to go through that again especially as the true jordanians will become a true minority.

i'll give u another fact to digest: the majority of the support for islamic brotherhood [largest opposition bloc] in jordan [who are very chummy with Hamas] come from jordanian palestinians, so will abdullah want more of the supporters of his domestic opponents? just think on that.

as for the situation here, well i still believe that the only way out of this whole hole into which we lebanese dug ourselves is through some sort of dialgoue that rewrites the Taíf agreement and reaches a new national accord. cause even if the current crew patched things up now with disarming of hezbollah and all the rest, believe me new problems will emerge in a few years time. for example: the palestinian refugees issue, sharing of power, relations with syria and israel, sunni extremism [which will show further manifistations here even without syrian help], economic sinkhole...these problems are but to name a few

[Don Cox]

"consider what you have here: a democraticaly elected government prevented from ruling"

There are two kinds of democratically elected government: those which are prepared to bow out if they lose the next election, and those which plan to stay in power for ever. The second type has no intention of holding any properly conducted, fair elections.

A good example of the first is the socialist government, led by Attlee, which won in Britain by a landslide at the end of WW II. Hamas in Palestine is an example of the second, I think.

There is no reason why those who support democracy should support them.

[ali bm]

what proof have you that Hamas will not bow out? the elections took place at the beginning of last year and the consitution doesn't allow the president to call for new ones or dissolve the parliament so Hamas has every right to rule, same as the Sanyurah government has the right to rule over here in lebanon as it is based on a majority won through the recent elections. if u accept that the current lebanese government is fully legitimate and should rule then you must also acknowledge Hamas's right, as the integrity of the elections was witnessed by a person no less than jimmy carter (the best american president since Wilson in world war I in my opinion) and Hamas didn't spend 40 million dollars in certain provinces to buy votes or resorted to calling from the minarets of mosques on people to vote for a certain movement and they didn't even resort to fatwas like hezbollah forcing their mmebers to vote

[fubar]

(Naharnet) Hizbullah gunmen kidnapped three policemen in south Beirut Friday, stripped them of their weapons, interrogated them and then set them free.

A ranking police officer told Naharnet the police patrol was trying to settle a quarrel between a number of people in the Hadi Nasrallah avenue of south Beirut, which is a Hizbullah stronghold.

"All of a sudden armed Hizbullah elements besieged the patrol, stripped the officers of their weapons and took them to a Hizbullah office in the area," said the officer.

"The police officers were interrogated by Hizbullah members who set them free later after contacts between Lebanese officials and the party's leadership," he added.

The officer said Hizbullah gunmen accused the three of "entering Hizbullah's secured square" in south Beirut which is off limits for Lebanese troops and security forces.

The so-called secured square in south Beirut houses Hizbullah's main facilities.

Beirut, 15 Jun 07, 16:02

********

Hezbollah can be armed but they disarm the police. What a show of respect for the state's institutions, the state of Hezbollahland, that is.

[ghassan karam]

Ali bm,
It is very tiring to have to go over the same argument over and over again. The fact that a government was elected is Not sufficient to make it a democracy especially when it declares to whoever will listen that its goal is to eradicate its neighbour. Furthermore could you tell me where is it written that the rest of the world is obliged to send donations to a country so that it can wage war? How is the world preventing Hamas from ruling? By not financing them!!!
Fubar,
That is a sad story about the state of affairs in Lebanon. If you ask Beri or Lahoud though they will extol the democratic values of the thugs/resistance. I do not mean to diminish the significance of the outcome at Naher El Bared but it would be a big mistake if Mr. Saniora and the kid are satisfied with the status quo ante. My concern has always been is that this group of pols does not have the imagination or the will to move the country forward.

[fubar]

Ghassan,

Nahr El Bared is not over yet - it ain't over till its over.

I don't have time for extended discussion right now, so I will just suggest you go read Blacksmith Jade's post for today.

[Bad Vilbel]

Ali bm,

The moment Hamas started operating outside state institutions, they lost all high moral ground they might have had from winning elections.

After they won, they did get appointed to cabinet. Hanniyeh was made PM in a ruling coalition, just like any democracy in the rest of the world. They chose to continue operating outside of the state institutions, insisted on having their own militias, on firing rockets on neighbouring countries, all outside of state institutions. So your argument has absolutely ZERO merit.

I do give you this though: The Palestinians who overwhelming voted for Hamas last year are getting exactly what they deserved: A state of anarchy, with power in the hands of an organization that does not abide by any constitution or rule of laws.

[Jeha]

Fubar has a point, and even a whole line; Nahr El-Bared is going to flow a little more.

This is just the beginning, I fear.

[ghassan karam]

Fubar/Jeha,
I am also just about to go on a 4 day hiatus but I must take a moment to say that I am of the opinion that the special events at Naher El Bared are practically over. This does not mean that peace will rein and it says nothing about potential implications. All what I am saying is that I will act as a Giraffe and proclaim the end of the Naher El Bared episode in favour of the current government in Lebanon.

[another_someone]

GK come back soon :-)

[fubar]

Jeha,

I tried to post on your moderated comments but not sure it took so I am posting my answer here knowing that you will see it.

"I am not sure, however, what you mean by "breakaway Hezbollah LAF."

I am not sure that you fully understand Iran's plan. You see Iran works very hard to maintain some type of legitimacy, for instance, they have elections so they can pretend that they are democratic but they limit the candidates to only those carefully pre-selected and approved so the elections are not really free elections, merely show elections.

What you see happening in Gaza right now is an example of how Iran works to gain legitimacy. No one can deny that Hamas was elected. And now that Abu Mazen has declared a state of emergency and named a new Prime Minister, Hamas is all about saying not so fast, this is not legal, you don't have the power to do that, Hamas and Gaza are not withdrawing from the PA. You see, this is about maintaining legitimacy. They do not want just Gaza, they want the entire PA. And they will take it in stages - the lesson of the post-Iranian Revolution is incrementalism.

In Lebanon it is the same. Hezbollah is not interested solely in a state within a state, it wants the whole state, the legitimacy that comes from being a state. Hezbollah will work both to take what it wants and to preserve the illusion of legitimacy. But everything it does will be done to incrementally bring it closer to the final goal - full, unchallenged authority in and over Lebanon.

They all use the same mantras, the ruling authority is corrupt and we will clean it up - Hamas and Hezbollah. But the ruling regime in Iran is corrupt to the core and it stays in power by allowing the Pasdaran to be equally corrupt.

Iran thinks long term and has infinite patience. Iran and Hezbollah have been working their plan since the early 1980's. M14 has only just in the past two years come to full power without Syrian domination. It is not possible for M14 to be as organized or as strategically prepared for the challenge as it is for Hezbollah. So, it always appears as though M14 is always reacting and not aggressively acting, often that is the case.

Iran has the Pasdaran and an Army. So too will Iranian Lebanon need both Hezbollah and an Army. The Army gives the appearance of legitimacy and provides another layer of protection - cannon fodder. In the event of a split, the current LAF members who will splinter will not only take what weapons they can get their hands on to aid Hezbollah and fight with Hezbollah, but they will also make up the core of the Hezbollah LAF in the event Hezbollah wins the day.

[Bad Vilbel]

And to add to Fubar's comment and excellent analysis of the M.O. of Iran and its proxies: These guys take what they want by force when need be (Hamas this week, Hezbollah in the past) and after they got what they wanted (the current "increment" they're after), they'll talk about truces, and about extending an olive branch to the other side (be it M14, or Fatah), on their conditions, of course. And the suckers on the other side, who always operate on a "better talk than fight" principle will indeed sit down with them and come up with some "cohabitation formula" that's only good until the next increment.

Hamas did this with Abbas over the past 18 months. Hezbollah did it with March 14 over the past 2 years. This approach gives them that cover of legitimacy every time. And the other side always falls for it (with the usual pressure and "mediation" from the inept Arab League) instead of telling them to go to hell.

[Craig]

Fubar, a minor correction:

Iran has the Pasdaran and an Army. So too will Iranian Lebanon need both Hezbollah and an Army.

The Pasdaran Is the "Revolutionary Guard Corps (in English)" - it is not a militia. It is best trained, equipped and fanatical branch of the Iranian military. Some units in the Pasdaran specialize in recruiting, equipping and training local militias in foreign countries, like the US Special Forces do. It was the Pasdaran that created Hezbollah. The Pasdaran is in no way an Iranian equivalent to Hezbollah.

The Iranian equivalent to Hezbolla would be the Basij, which is a "Revolutionary People's Militia" consisting of several different groups, including Hezbollahi - “partisans of God” - and those are the craziest fuckers in Iran.

The Basij is formed under the Pasdaran, and is led by Pasdaran officers. But the two are not the same. The Basij are more like a "volunteer" supplement to the Pasdaran.

If Iran was to shoot for the same goal in Lebanon, it is Hezbollah who would be the cannon fodder, as the Basij was during Iran's war with Iraq.

But I don't really think that is the goal. Maybe *after* Lebanon is under the control of Iran. I suspect any Shia who disband from the Army would take off their uniforms (or not) and just join Hezbollah.

By the way, that's why one of the posts here from a couple weeks ago that was claiming the Pasdaran was the "moderate wing of the Revolutionary Guard Corps" was so funny, since the Pasdaran *is* the Revolutionary Guard Corps :)

[Craig]

Oh! My comment! BV and Fubar - this "incremental" aggression is not unique to Iran. It is the history of Islam, from the beginning. I think it goes back to what the Quran says about truces, and how it's OK to violate a truce agreement if you suspect your enemy of duplicity. Of course, there is always a reason that can be found (if one want to find one) that your enemy can't be trusted.

[fubar]

Craig,

You are telling me about the Pasdaran. LOL
I thought that you said you have read B2B for the past 2 years. Apparently, not close enough.

"I suspect any Shia who disband from the Army would take off their uniforms (or not) and just join Hezbollah." -- Absolutely, but afterwards, they would form the core loyal nucleous of the new IRL Army. That is what I stated:

"In the event of a split, the current LAF members who will splinter will not only take what weapons they can get their hands on to aid Hezbollah and fight with Hezbollah, but they will also make up the core of the Hezbollah LAF in the event Hezbollah wins the day."

But you are wrong about Hezbollah. The Lebanese Pasdaran will come from those who have proven their loyalty through Hezbollah. Iran will have to keep a "Lebanese" face to continue the charade of legitimacy.

The prior post you found so funny:

Tehran, 30 April (AKI) - An Iranian administrative court has banned Baztab, one of the most popular websites in Iran, close to the moderate wing of the Revolutionary Guard, the Pasdaran, reports said Monday. The unofficial mouthpiece of the Pasdaran, close to ex commander, general Mohsen Rezaii, had in the past few months been highly critical of president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his government, accusing them of having betrayed electoral campaign pledges and of being unable to tackle the country's social and economic problems.

Mohammad Javad Barbarian, the editor in chief of Baztab, however claimed the website would remain available on line in spite of the ban.

"The ruling of the administrative court has no juridical basis," he said.

*******

juridical - sounds like a Bushism, but it's a real word.

"moderate wing of the Pasdaran" - now there is a real mind bender - you have to be able to be real flexible with the word "moderate".

Anyway, this is interesting. Baztab was shut down for a while a few months ago.

Posted by: fubar | Monday, April 30, 2007 at 01:18 PM

*********

As for AKI saying, "moderate wing of the Revolutionary Guard, the Pasdaran" that was not a mistranslation as you thought but AKI's use of the "official name" in English, followed by the more common name. Like saying the Republican Party, the GOP -- same thing. FYI - if you read AKI regularly, you would know that AKI most often uses Pasdaran without further explanation and when it does use Revolutionary Guard, it almost always then either immediately follows that with the Pasdaran or just then goes thoughout the rest of the article using Pasdaran instead of RG without ever explaining it.

Penglish/English translations:
Pasdaran = Guardians
Pasdar = Guard (sign of respect used when refering to high ranking officers within the Pasdaran)

AKI assumes a certain degree of general knowledge by its readers (unlike many publications).

In any event, there is actually something of a division currently within the Pasdaran. And use of the word moderate as to Rezaii's group, as I indicated in the original post, is really quite a stretch and possible only in terms of relativity.

Also, BTW, since were are speaking in English, I am pretending that Revolutionary Guard is in fact the official name of the Pasdaran; however, it is not. That is the name which Westerners have given it - either the Islamic Revolutionary Guard or the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. The official name is:

Sepah-e Pasdaran-e Enghelab-e Islami
or in English
Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution

So you should understand that Pasdaran is the more correct usage and not Revolutionary Guards.

Finally, you did not answer my question last night night. In the event that you did not see it, I asked if you were in Beirut in 1983. If you do not wish to answer, that is, of course, quite alright.

[Charlie]

Good analysis Fubar on HA’s strategy..

A couple of thing should be clear to the Lebanese government: HA is not a group they can cohabitate with, and force is going to be necessary to terminate that evil cult. Since force is going to be used, so perhaps the departure of HA sympathizers from the LAF is necessary, not to mention welcomed, so the LAF can have a chance to succeed.

On the strategic level though, it sure looks like Syria and Iran are busy doing their job, causing problems .What are we exactly doing??

[Bad Vilbel]

Right on cue, what I said about Hamas now offering a truce and proposing some sort of negotiation:

-- (from Yahoo News) --

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal called for dialogue with Fatah.

"What is needed now is to deal with the Palestinian schism. Hamas is for Arab sponsorship of a dialogue in the Palestinian national interest," Meshaal said hours after Arab foreign ministers met in Cairo to discuss the crisis.

Anxious to demonstrate a statesmanlike authority, Haniyeh took a conciliatory tone after violence that killed well over 100 people. The body of at least one "executed" Fatah militant leader was dragged through the streets on Thursday.

"I demand that all our people show calm and self-restraint," he said after freeing Fatah chiefs accused of plotting a coup.

-- End story --

Gee. I wonder why Hamas wasn't for an "Arab sponsorship of a dialogue in the Palestinian national interest" yesterday, when they were busy throwing other Palestinians off buildings...

[fubar]

Charlie,

"What are we exactly doing??"

There are a number of fronts in play right now, including:

There is the moron play of trying to get Micho to come over to M14. This is a follow up on allegedly getting Micho's assurance that his people will show up for the Presidential elections to hopefully make a quorum.

And then there is the dog and pony show which starts with the Arab League (because Lebanon is so Arab) and ends with the UNSC.

[Craig]

Fubar,

You are telling me about the Pasdaran.

Yes. I am.

Tehran, 30 April (AKI) - An Iranian administrative court has banned Baztab, one of the most popular websites in Iran, close to the moderate wing of the Revolutionary Guard, the Pasdaran, reports said Monday.

That is a mis-translation, as I said. In the construction of that sentence, the subordinat clause "the Pasdaran" clearly is meant to describe the preceding clause "the moderate wing of the Revolutionary Guard". Anybody who took grade school English grammar would read it so.

The sentence should have been constructed thusly:

An Iranian administrative court has banned Baztab, one of the most popular websites in Iran, close to the moderate wing of the Revolutionary Guard(the Pasdaran), reports said Monday.

To have been read as you indicate it should have been read.

Are you a native English speaker, Fubar? Considering you like to question other people about their background and credentials, you seem remarkably secretive about your own.

Now, on to your previous comment that caused so much confusion:

Iran has the Pasdaran and an Army. So too will Iranian Lebanon need both Hezbollah and an Army.

Maybe it's another language problem, Fubar, but the meaning of this sentence is clear.

Iran = Pasdaran + Army.
Lebanon = Hezbollah + Army.

I didn't say that. You did. And it's incorrect.

The Army gives the appearance of legitimacy and provides another layer of protection - cannon fodder.

This is also incorrect. Iran did not use the Army as cannon fodder in the human wave attacks around Basra. Basij were used in that role.

As for the other question that you feel you are entitled to an answer to: You have mentioned twice that I don't have to answer it (which of course, I know) - and yet, when I chose not to answer it, you asked again.

I don't know what your deal is, Fubar, but you seem like a shady character, to me. Are you trying to roleplay a CIA spook, or something? A real spook wouldn't spend so much time trying to prove his credentials with vague implications.

If you have some sort of special expertise on these matters, spit it out.

Considering you aren't a native English speaker, and yet claim to be American, and you seem to think you are an expert on Iran, I am certainly NOT going to answer any questions you pose about my own background. And I don't know what in the hell you think gives you the right to press, either. You could be a Hezbollah or a IRI plant, for all I know.

[Craig]

One more thing, Fubar.

I saw you tell Charlie you aren't Lebanese. You say you are American, but you aren't a native English speaker. You have a great deal of interest in Lebanon, but I've never seen you on any other Arab blogs. Nor have I seen you on any Iranian blogs, and I read quite a few.

What is your ethnic background? What is your interest in Lebanon? On what basis do you claim expertise on the US military?

You don't have to answer these questions, of course :P

[Charlie]

Fubar,

Let’s forget Lebanon for a sec here. What I meant by we ..as the US we? I mean we keep delivering warnings and Assad and Midgetjad are making a mockery of it. I am thinking it is time for some action, and I am not talking about some useless sanctions. We keep playing down to their pathetic level instead of showing them who is the superpower here and the kind of pain they stand to feel by keeping up their stupid game!!

[fubar]

Craig,

Well, the problem we are having regarding the translations is that you are trying to use standard Enlgish grammar rules and applying it to the English version of AKI as translated from the Italian.

I don't know how many languages you speak but if you speak more than one you would know that it is virtually impossible to make a literal translation from one language to another and always keep the precise meaning. Additionally, many non-English publications which also put out English versions attempt to translate their native versions into English. What you get is wholely dependent upon the translation skills of the translator and their familiarity with both languages. So then you cannot always apply proper English grammar to English language versions of non-English publications. However, if you read that publication enough, you become familiar with how they translate things and what grammar style they use. AKI likes commas, not parens.

The Basij are not regular Army and, yes, they are used as the ultimate cannon fodder. My point was that the Pasdaran and the Iranian Army are two different entities, the Basij is yet a third and had nothing to do with my point.

I stand by my point that the Lebanese equivolent of the Pasdaran will come from Hezbollah and the Lebanese Army will be a separate entity. We can disagree on this point.

As to my question regarding your background, please go read your postings from last night. It is you that is making illusion to things without actually spitting it out.

You said:

Thanks for telling me what I think, Tommy. Where were you on October 23, 1983? How many of YOUR friends died, that day?

I sued to like you on Sandmonkey's blog, Tommy, but you're rapidly losing my respect. You talk out of your ass.

Posted by: Craig | Thursday, June 14, 2007 at 09:18 PM

I said:

Were you at the Marine barracks or did you just have buddies there?

Posted by: fubar | Thursday, June 14, 2007 at 10:04 PM

You never commented again after that until tonight. Since I don't know if you read all the comments and even saw my question, I asked again and politely stated that, of course, you did not have to answer if you did not want to.

WTF? You brought it up.

"You could be a Hezbollah or a IRI plant, for all I know."

Well, I suppose that is always possible, just as it is always possible that people claim to be vets when they are not, or claim to have been in some conflict which they were not. I don't question the fact that you are/were a Marine. I was just trying to understand why you had such a hard on for Hezbollah and why you were in such a feud with Tommy on this forum.

Finally, I didn't tell Charlie I am not Lebanese, I told Tommy I was not Lebanese. Charlie knows I am not Lebanese as I have never made any secret of that and I even go out of my way to correct anyone who incorrectly assumes that I am as Tommy did. And I am American which is another thing I make no bones about.

Since we seem to have developed a feud of our own here, I don't see any point in explaining my background or expertise.

[fubar]

Charlie,

We are in Afghanistan. We are Iraq. We are the Phillipines. We are in the Gulf. We are on the Horn of Africa. We are...you name it, we are there.

We have a Congress trying to defund our efforts in Iraq.

We have allies that think we should talk to Iran some more. Hell, we have Congressmen that think we should talk to Iran some more.

We are doing the diplodance and slowly making the case. In short, we are doing powerpoint presentations.

[Jeha]

Fubar,

Point well taken. I understand the infinite patience of Iran, but I do not think that they can afford to be "too patient". The financial resources of the Mullahs are increasingly limited, and the interests they are threatening are increasingly "motivated" by fear.

I just hope that the Mullahs can be kicked out of the scene before they drag Iran, and the rest of us, with them. You hint at this repeatedly, and I fear Lebanon is now but one front in a larger fight. But I tend to drift towards Ghassan's moderated optimism; the immediate challenges should not blind us to the longer term potentials.

Note; I have enabled moderation on my blog because it was getting too laborious to block some idiots from posting crapola... OK, maybe I'm still an Amateur.

[Craig]

Fubar,

So then you cannot always apply proper English grammar to English language versions of non-English publications.

I pointed out it was a funny sounding translation error in my first comment. What's the problem?

My point was that the Pasdaran and the Iranian Army are two different entities,

As are the US Marines and the US Army. They are both still actual military services, not militias.

the Basij is yet a third and had nothing to do with my point.

The Basij is a militia, as Hezbollah is a militia. In fact, both the Basij and Iranian Hezbollah were created 3 years before Lebanese Hezbollah was created. What do you think the Pasdaran used as a model when creating Lebanese Hezbollah?

Anyway, that's where your comparison should have been. But, it wasn't.

I stand by my point that the Lebanese equivolent of the Pasdaran will come from Hezbollah and the Lebanese Army will be a separate entity. We can disagree on this point.

The "Iranian Model" consists of three major parts.

1) A fanatical and absolutely loyal military branch that is fairly small.

2) A larger and less reliable regular Army

3) A very large volunteer (but subsidized) militia

If Hezbollah because the Lebanese equivalent of the IRGC, then where does the militia come from? Amal? Why would they do that? Hezbollah is already formed in exactly the same way the Basij in Iran is. The same command structure, the same training and tactics, the same financial system, the same integration with civil society. Why would they want to fix something that isn't broken, and then have to replace Hezbolah with something else that's exactly the same as Hezbollah is, anyway?

It doesn't make sense to me. HA would lose it's value as street thugs and neighborhood enforcers if they became regular professional military.

It is you that is making illusion to things without actually spitting it out.

Oh, really? The answer to your question is in the archives of this very blog, if you want to go look. I've never hid anything about my background. I've even mentioned the town I live in, on a Palestinian blog, a few weeks ago.

What does anybody know about you, fubar? In this thread you seemed to think it was pretty funny that I was telling you about the Pasdaran. Want to clarify for me why it is you think you know so much about the Iranina military?

I've seen you comment a dozen times with what seems to be authority about the US military. Yet, I've never seen you mention where that expertise comes from.

You never commented again after that until tonight. Since I don't know if you read all the comments and even saw my question, I asked again and politely stated that, of course, you did not have to answer if you did not want to.

The lack of answer was your answer. Why did you feel it was necessary to ask again? Why is it any of your business? Were you there? What unit? What's your MOS?

If you weren't there, then why did you feel the need to press me on it, not once but twice? Don't you think that's a little aggressive?

WTF? You brought it up.

I did. And I said all I wished to say about it.

Well, I suppose that is always possible, just as it is always possible that people claim to be vets when they are not, or claim to have been in some conflict which they were not.

I understand completely. That's why I have asked you to state your own credentials, so that I will know who I am talking to. I was an 0342/0351, joined the USMC in 1982 and got out in 1989. Who are you?

Finally, I didn't tell Charlie I am not Lebanese

No, you told Charlie. You can't even remember who you told what, to? You told it to Charlie when you asked him if he could show you around when you went to go blasting away at fuckers in the camps.

And you ask why I have such a hardon for Hezbollah? Hezbollah killed my friends. What did the guys in that camp do to you?

I told Tommy I was not Lebanese.

You told Tommy you were American.

Charlie knows I am not Lebanese

Yes. You told him two weeks ago. I saw it. You've been around here a lot longer than that. I assumed you were Lebanese myself, from the way you were talking.

Since we seem to have developed a feud of our own here, I don't see any point in explaining my background or expertise.

How convenient.

[Jeha]

Fubar, Craig,

Dudes! It is interesting how you guys can find a shred of disagreement when you basically agree, and expand it. You guys might as well be Lebanese; Lebanon has been getting to y'all far too much.

Maybe I should suggest a shopping spree; the Syrians would be more than willing to part with a few AK's at a decent price. They need the money, and there is much testosterone to spare. Please note; bullets sold separately.

[fubar]

Craig,

"1) A fanatical and absolutely loyal military branch that is fairly small."

Where do you think these guys are going to come from if not from Hezbollah? Or do you think Iran will just send Iranians to do the job?

"The lack of answer was your answer. Why did you feel it was necessary to ask again? Why is it any of your business? Were you there? What unit? What's your MOS?"

And I considered that a possibility which is why I specifically stated that, of course, you did not have to answer.

No, I was not in Lebanon in 1983. I think you are little older than I am.

What I said to Tommy, exactly, was:

Tommy,

FYI, I'm not Lebanese. I am American.

. . .

Posted by: fubar | Thursday, June 14, 2007 at 09:13 PM

Not for nothing, but you undermine your own credibility when you are too fucking lazy to check the comments back 24 hours to see exactly what I said and then you come here and say I said something other than what I did say.

I have been telling everyone on this blog since the week I showed up, shortly after the summer war started, that I am American. Everyone who reads here regularly knows that. And Charlie has known it forever too, we were just messing around a couple weeks ago - something you apparently don't either understand or have never experienced.

Let's cut to the chase. I will tell you what I want to tell you, that is what I have already said on this blog and what the regular readers here, which apparently does not include you, already know about me.

I grew up in Iran.
I also lived for a couple of years in Saudi Arabia.
I am an American and, yes, I have an A number.
My life was not only affected by the revolution, but I am so damn fuckin' lucky, I lived the hostage crisis too - all 444 days of it. I know one of hostages very personally.

I have spent my entire adult life, since I graduated from college, in service to the United States. I am still in service, as are other of my family members, including some that are currently in Iraq.

You are out so you can speak freely about your service if you like. I'm not, so I don't.

So what do you know, you are older than I am and still I have been dealing with this shit longer than you.

In just less than a year of commenting and reading comments here, I can tell you almost everyone here is dealing with shit, and some, just like you and me, have wounds that never heal.

I have spent my time down range, I don't need to take pot shots from you. The only reason I am even answering you tonight is because you say you were in Beirut in 1983. Semper fi.

[Don Cox]

"what proof have you that Hamas will not bow out? "

I have no proof, which is why I wrote "I think". Time will tell. I will be very surprised if properly conducted elections leading to a change of government ever take place under the rule of Hamas.

Very surprised indeed.

[Jeha]

What a coincidence! I was in Beirut in 1983... And 82, 78, 76, 75, 73, 67, 58, ... I still am now... OK, barely. And I'm stretching the timeline (a little_. But you've gotta admit, this testosterone fest is going nowhere; we all know you can all dish it as well as you can take it.

Fubar, before "Jeha raft" outta here, just a question. This little testosteronathon reminds me of an interesting story that Khomeiny's first bodyguard was drawn exclusively from Lebanese Shiites, about 700 of them. Did those guys form the nucleus of the Pasdaran? or where they a different force?

[Charlie]

Craig,

"Charlie knows I am not Lebanese

Yes. You told him two weeks ago. I saw it. You've been around here a lot longer than that. I assumed you were Lebanese myself, from the way you were talking."

Fubar is correct on this one Craig. He and I and others have been exchanging posts here for a lot longer than 2 weeks and I already knew he was not Lebanese, not that there is anything wrong with it ( a little Sinfieldisim)....:-) . If it came up, it is probably in some context where he is trying to make a point or something.....

[ella]

Craig

Fubar made a good point. Hizbullah wants to became a legitimate army, independent and paralel to Lebaneese Army. Please note, he did not say hizbullah is a legitimate army but wrote that it wants to be.
It has similar origins as Pasdaran who" was formed following the Islamic Revolution of 1979 in an effort to consolidate several paramilitary forces into a single force loyal to the new regime and to function as a counter to the influence and power of the regular military."
Pasdaran consists now of navy, air force and ground forces "As [you wrote ]are the US Marines and the US Army. They are both still actual military services, not militias." However in the beginning Sepah-e Pasdaran-e Enghelab-e Islami did not consist of regular forces but militias.
Pasdaran even owns factories and businesses............see similarities to hizbullah?
As for Basiji who are subbordinate to Pasdaran, it is a cannon fodder, but don't you think that one of the many Lebaneese militia factions may not in future play a similiar role under the (possible) rule of Islamists in Lebanon?

[Jay]

To me it seems that Hezbollah wants to be [i]both[/i] Pasdaran and Basiji: the inner circle and elite units will form the former, while the "discipline men" and other fringe groups can be the latter.

[Craig]

Fubar,

Where do you think these guys are going to come from if not from Hezbollah? Or do you think Iran will just send Iranians to do the job?

It only takes 13 weeks for the US Marine Corps to create a fanatically loyal killing machine. Iran can't create US Marines, but I suspect they can use similar methods to create IRGC troops, in a similar amount of time. All it takes is the right base material and instructors who know what they are doing.

I still se no reason why Iran would want to dismantle an organization as effective as Hezbollah. Hezbollah guys would have to be completely retrained to be decent soldiers, anyway. Why not just start from scratch, and leave Hezbollah in place? That's what i would do.

Everyone who reads here regularly knows that.

I read here, regularly. I didn't know that until your comment to Charlie, a couple weeks ago. In fact, I didn't know you were American, then. I just knew you weren't Lebanese, which surprised me since you seemed to take everything so personally. I didn't know you were American until your comment to Tommy.

And Charlie has known it forever too, we were just messing around a couple weeks ago - something you apparently don't either understand or have never experienced.

You know, I really appreciate these cheap shots, Fubar.

Honestly, I don't pay much attention to your comments, because you seem to be a cheerleader for maximum possible aggression.

Let's cut to the chase. I will tell you what I want to tell you

Yes! Lets cut to the chase!

I grew up in Iran.
I also lived for a couple of years in Saudi Arabia.
I am an American and, yes, I have an A number.

What the hell does "A" number mean, Fubar?

I thought you said you were going to cut to the chase? Hop to it.

My life was not only affected by the revolution, but I am so damn fuckin' lucky, I lived the hostage crisis too - all 444 days of it. I know one of hostages very personally.

I thought you said you were younger than me? I was 14 when the hostages were taken. 16 when they were released. You can't be much younger than me.

I have spent my entire adult life, since I graduated from college, in service to the United States. I am still in service, as are other of my family members, including some that are currently in Iraq.

And yet, you know so little? What's your MOS, Fubar? And what branch of service?

You are out so you can speak freely about your service if you like. I'm not, so I don't.

That's bullshit. If you are on active duty, Fubar, the comments you've made on this blog are illegal. And you know it. Active duty personnel are not permitted to comment publicly about political issues, and particularly when it comes to advocating violence.

If you feel comfortable breaking the law on that, why can't you talk about anything else you wish to? I'm not buying it, Fubar.

So what do you know, you are older than I am and still I have been dealing with this shit longer than you.

So you say, Fubar, but I haven't seen a convincing statement out of you. You still seem like somebody who is roleplaying, to me.

In just less than a year of commenting and reading comments here, I can tell you almost everyone here is dealing with shit, and some, just like you and me, have wounds that never heal.

I've been reading and commenting on this blog twice as long as you, then. Although, I stopped commenting on Lebanese blogs over a year ago. Where were you then?

I have spent my time down range, I don't need to take pot shots from you. The only reason I am even answering you tonight is because you say you were in Beirut in 1983. Semper fi.

Don't bother, then. And don't tell me "semper fi" unless you're a Marine. Are you? I don't know. Because you're still pulling that "shady character" shit, even after you said you'd cut to the chase.

[Craig]

ella and jay, you both make good points. I don't think there's any way to predict what will happen in Lebanon if Lebanon gains hegemony there. The only model we can look at is Iran itself. And there wasn't a pre-existing militia (such as Hezbollah) in Iran, in 1979. I wouldn't be surprised if Hezbollah leadership was elevated to the commanders of a "Lebanese IRGC" - but not the rank and file.

[Craig]

Supposed to be:

I don't think there's any way to predict what will happen in Lebanon if Iran gains hegemony there.

OK and now I'm going back to lurking mode. I don't really feel comfortable talking about Lebanon. And fubar, I'm surprised that you do.

[Umm Kais]

Craig--"A" numbers are usually Alien numbers...as in green card holders.

[Abilama]

See the twins of the Hizbullah i.e. Hamas in Gaza and their undereported atrocities :

Three Palestinians were shot dead in Beit Hanoun Hospital in northern Gaza. These include Fatah leader Jamal Abu al-Jedian, who was shot 41 times in his hospital bed. Hamas gunmen attacked the home of a Fatah security official with mortars and grenades. Not finding him at home, they instead executed his 14-year-old son and three women inside.

Two Palestinians who worked for a UN agency in Gaza have been executed, a UN spokesman said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EEkcEnNIEs

Hamas – and its Syrian and Iranian sponsors - capture priceless Palestinian Authority intelligence archives in Gaza putsch.
Que vos mass-média vous cache; le lynchage sadique d'un homme Fatah par Hamas pris par tel. portable. Le terroriste mort est apparemment le terroriste de Fatah Samih Al-Madhoun : les Résidents ont dit plus tard qu'ils ont vu des terroristes du Hamas faire étalage du corps de Madhoun dans la rue. :

Voir sur LGF :

http: // littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/

Also:
video de l'execution d'un membre du Fatah par des hommes du Hamas.

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/595/695.html
(scroller un peu vers le bas pour trouver la video en milieu de page)

Et ca voyez vous , c'est la fraternite musulmane. Imaginez quand l'ennemi est un koufar ...
_________________

[Abu Kais]

Craig, Fubar is a good friend of this blog. There is no reason to harass him like that (and vice versa, no reason for anyone to harass you). If you got a different point of view, then by all means say it. Many of us are anonymous for good reasons. He is not an exception. Also, many of us are as "American" as you are, including Umm Kais above, who was born and raised here and only got to know the Middle East through me. In short, please enjoy this forum and refrain from personal attacks on one of our best commentators. This site wouldn't be the same without Fubar and Fubar's views, even if we don't always agree with him. Thanks. :)

[hazbani]

Sorry to bother and I am realy not much when compared to the rest of you in your deep knowledge of the ME and most other things discussed. Just 2 questions.
1. What kind of guns (cannons) is the LA using in Nahar il Barid?
2. In the good old days, 1930-1940? , when jobs in the Lebanese system were allocated according to ethnicty-religion, where some jobs in the then artilery assinged to Jews?
Thank you all.