Through The Fog

Wars are funny things.  On the face of it, this one started for a seemingly apolitical reason -- a bank was robbed, and the army tried to arrest the criminals.  It could have been the plot of a particularly spectacular episode of Law and Order.  When the serious fighting broke out, the question of how the battle will affect the basic political terrain of Lebanon were irrelevant.  Over thirty soldiers have been killed; the terrorists have to die.  But how will Lebanon look different, after the smoke clears?

The most intriguing possibility is a crack-up of the pro-Syrian coalition.  While Nasrallah is warning that an incursion by the Lebanese Army into Naher el-Bared constitutes "a red line," the FPM supports "any action the army undertakes." (Hat Tip: Beirut Spring) When the matter is purely hypothetical, it is unlikely to break up the March 8th coalition -- all of whose parties are perfectly well aware of the cost of failure.  But in the event of a sustained army invasion of the camp, the split could widen.    

Meanwhile, I am sympathetic to a strategic argument against invading Naher el-Bared: a guerilla battle in narrow streets, with the distinct possibility of radicalizing the Palestinians present, should be avoided if at all possible.  The Lebanese Army also does not, presumably, want to set a precedent of assuming responsibility for patrolling the camps.  But I am confused by Hizbullah's moral qualms about the Lebanese Army entering Naher al-Bared.  The Shi'a militia opposes the Lebanese Army doing whatever it can to wipe out a group who considers them infidels because -- because -- why?  Maybe, because they are temporarily fighting for the same side.  Paging Seymour Hersh...

I also cannot imagine that the Aounists really believe that Al Qaeda is setting bombs in Christian areas.  It takes a special kind of person to believe that Al Qaeda has lost interest in Iraq, in favor of scaring the Maronites and destroying Lebanon's tourist season.  It requires ignorance of the international political situation, any knowledge whatsoever of the international tribunal's imminent creation, and a total lack of understanding of who benefits from chaos in Lebanon.  But, in some ways, it no longer matters what Aoun thinks.  He has made his bed with Hassan Nasrallah and Syria, and now he needs to sleep there.

And then, of course, there are the Palestinians.  There are many questions about how Lebanon will look different after the latest battle; there is one certainty.  Naher el-Bared will be half-destroyed and there will be many Palestinian civilians among the dead.  The abject poverty that the Palestinians live in will become more abject, the already-high potential for radicalization among the Palestinians will become higher.  The Arab governments, which claim to fight on behalf of the Palestinian cause, should be disgraced by their refusal to integrate Palestinians within their own countries.  Some things never change.

Comments

[eRamzi]

David,
correct me if i am wrong, but are you saying that Lebanon should integrate the palestinians? or are you talking about other arab countries?

[David Kenner]

Ramzi -- I'm talking about all countries, but specifically Arab ones, where Palestinians would most likely find a home. No, that paragraph should not be read as an endorsement of giving immediate Lebanese citizenship and economic aid to the Palestinian refugees, and thus overturning the political and economic order of Lebanon. Given the small size of this country, I don't think that it has been or will ever be feasible to integrate all of the Palestinians living in the refugee camps. It is up to each Arab country to aid in the integration of Palestinian refugees as their size and resources allow. The Palestinian refugees represent only a sliver of the overall population of the Arab world, and it should be possible to integrate them without endangering political stability. Lebanon has a role in this, but it is a role commensurate to its size.

There is simply no reason why the Palestinians -- whose cause the region claims as a "bloodstream issue" -- should be living in refugee camps 60 years after the war with Israel. Aside from the obvious moral issues, their continued isolation presents a serious threat to Lebanon's political health.

[Don Cox]

If the Palestinians have been living in Lebanon for decades, it is more than time they were accepted as Lebanese citizens. At present there is an apartheid law in Lebanon, which is unjust.

[eRamzi]

i think the problem is more complex than that.
i would agree with the point you're trying to make under a few conditions. however, one should understand that Palestinians are raised with a "dream" - or at least i am told they are- and that is to return to their homeland. so imho i believe that Israel should be the first to show us some good faith and start by accepting some of the displaced palestinians around the arab world.
but giving the palestinians citizenship in lebanon, even if it just a fraction of them, would unfortunately ignite a civil war. and this is the only fear that i have. i want to add also that a number of issues are at stake when discussing the palestinians, like for example giving the lebanese abroad the right to vote and the fact that it would change the current demographic status in lebanon where the Chiia is the biggest population followed by the christians, then the sunni and the druze last.
there is a lot i can elaborate on, but i am currently studying my a$$ off for the mcats. and i just realized that double majoring in biology and political science is in fact a very bad idea

[Vox]

Isn't it strange that those pseudo-al qaeda fighters are planting bombs everywhere except in Shia neighbourhoods, and that the only politician who opposes an assault on them is none other than Hassan Nasrallah?

[Solomon2]

i believe that Israel should be the first to show us some good faith and start by accepting some of the displaced palestinians around the arab world.

They have. Anything more at this stage would only feed Israel-hating appetites, not satisfy them. I note that Arab rulers have never offerred to compensate or re-settle the hundreds of thousands of Jews they expelled since '48, let alone compensate or re-settle the descendants of the uncounted who were murdered or dispossessed in the centuries prior.

Yet with over twenty Arab countries, a hundred million people, and millions of square miles of territory, why aren't Arabs called upon to show more "good faith" towards their own "brethren"?

[M.]

Two quick points.

1 - The version you have heard of Hassan's speech is incomplete.

2 - Anything short of integrating the palestinians (at least in terms of civil and social rights) is shameful. eRamzi, one cannot come up with a good enough reason to do so.

[Charlie]

This problem is way too complex to have a binary solution. IMHO the solution would be a combination of some of the suggestions made so far; Arab+ Lebanese+ Israeli absorption of these refugees would be the most likely scenario.

Over the years some of these refugees were granted Lebanese citizenship and they have done very well integrating into the Lebanese fabric. There are lots of Palestinian men who married Lebanese women and their kids are as Lebanese as the rest of us but have been prevented from becoming Lebanese citizens, this is one facet of this problem that cannot be addressed through forced relocation elsewhere.

Israel and the PA keeps fighting over settlements and land grab, perhaps for once they can collaborate on building a settlement on a piece of land some place along the occupied territories that could be home to some of these refugees and not just another refugee camp.

This problem is too difficult to solve without a great deal of pragmatism by all. The Palestinians have the most to gain by working with all parties (Israel, Arabs and the Lebanese government) in moving beyond slogans and empty revolutionary rhetoric and contribute real ideas to solving this problem.

Regardless what the solution may entail in the future, Fatah Al-Islam is an alien band of criminals and they need to be removed completely from Lebanon by force if necessary.

[Umm Kais]

"There are lots of Palestinian men who married Lebanese women and their kids are as Lebanese as the rest of us but have been prevented from becoming Lebanese citizens, this is one facet of this problem that cannot be addressed through forced relocation elsewhere." Good point Charlie.

One of our closest friends has a Palestinian father (now deceased) and Lebanese mother. She has no citizenship even though she was born and raised in Hamra. Should her mother pass away, our friend will not be allowed to have her family apartment and will have no place to live anymore. I know this veers off topic but if women were allowed to pass down their citizenship in Lebanon, this would be a great social start for the country. Otherwise, Lebanon will be stuck in the dark ages, just like the "others".

The Palestinian issue is too complicated for me to dive into...but why couldn't Palestinians in the camps at least be allowed to work low-wage jobs, such as the ones Syrian laborers had before most of them left in 1995? I suppose others have thought of this.

[Charlie]

"The Palestinian issue is too complicated for me to dive into...but why couldn't Palestinians in the camps at least be allowed to work low-wage jobs, such as the ones Syrian laborers had before most of them left in 1995? I suppose others have thought of this."

Good point, I have always wondered the same thing. Every time I have visited Lebanon I couldn't help but notice the rise in imported help from countries as far away as Sri Lanka and Bangladesh but continue to refuse work to a group of people who live there and will actually contribute to the local economy. Sometimes I am truly amazed by the level of Lebanese stubbornness!!

[buckeye]

the problem with working with israel to help absorb the refugee problem is that the american christian coalition (pat robertson, jerry falwell and others) will never allow this due to their prophecies. While Israel puts its hand in the hand of the christian coalition to help further its cause (to get rid of the palis), it will ultimately mean their demise. This is one strategy that the israeli govt should definitely rethink
another thing, umm kais, i agree that entry level labor jobs are a good place to start, but the problem with the arab mentality is that many think doing maid's work, garbage pick up or anything at that level is considered demeaning. solomon, most (not all), were not kicked out, but rather inticed into the promised land by the zionist ideology. one such person that has written of such experience is naim giladi.
although i believe that the option of integration of the palis is a good one, there will definitely be opponents to this school of thought because that means that the pali citizenship will "die off". also, i don't believe that the arab govt should compensate the palis,as solomon indicated, but rather israel, should since they are the ones that threw them out and still continue to steal land. wasn't it the jewish population that was compensated from both germanies for the atrocities of the holocaust?
the unfortunate truth is that there will never be peace in the middle east until the pali issue is resolved.
peace

[Craig]

the problem with working with israel to help absorb the refugee problem is that the american christian coalition (pat robertson, jerry falwell and others) will never allow this due to their prophecies.

I don't understand that one, Buckeye. Can you explain? If you are referring to the Bible, the Quran is much more explicit in saying that the Jews are to live in Israel than the Bible is.

BTW, in case you don't know, Jerry Falwell passed away last month.

While Israel puts its hand in the hand of the christian coalition to help further its cause (to get rid of the palis), it will ultimately mean their demise.

So, Israel accepting help from people who want Israel to survive, will result of the end of Israel. And instead, the Israelis should do what people who announce to the whole world that they intend to destroy Israel... because that is the best way to ensure their continues survival. Is that it? :O

Don't hold your breath!

[Solomon2]

Should her mother pass away, our friend will not be allowed to have her family apartment and will have no place to live anymore.

When Jews were kicked out of Arab countries and into Israel, their properties were usually distributed to military and government officials, thereby instantly cementing a ruling class dedicated to propagating the idea that Jews, for one reason or another, must be deprived of their property or even their lives. Looks like now that the Jews are gone, the Palestinians - or anyone who can be painted as one - are the next victims.

The logic seems to be that there is no hope of getting land or property back from fellow Arabs, but there's hope the Israelis will give up something more instead. Yet I doubt that many people in Gaza today would consider their property as "secure"...

buckeye: yes, it's true that maybe as much as half of Israel's population arrived voluntarily - that is, they had the choice to go to Israel or not and keep their lives and property.

Most Arabs also departed Palestine voluntarily, listening to the promises of Arab governments that they should get out of the way so Arab armies could toss the Jews into the sea - and probably afraid, in their hearts, that the Jews would treat them the same way the Arabs tried to treat the Jews. I would venture to say that the Arabs who remained and became Israeli citizens were pleasantly shocked by their good fortune.

i don't believe that the arab govt should compensate the palis,as solomon indicated, but rather israel, should since they are the ones that threw them out and still continue to steal land.

Let's ignore the centuries of Arab conquests, and give only a passing glance to the fact that much of Israel's land was purchased from Arabs not once, but several times, as different family groups or squatters demanded payment for the same plot in the pre-independence period. And we'll just note in passing that much "Arab" land continues to be purchased by Jews legally, but is immediately decried as "theft". Rather, it's the Arab governments and citizens outside of Palestine who prevent the Palestinian Arabs from living normal lives, even if they live in the same land they've been in for generations. Not just those Arabs who live in "camps". For example, if it wasn't for external funding of terrorist groups, Gaza would probably be "normal" today.

wasn't it the jewish population that was compensated from both germanies for the atrocities of the holocaust?

Can you direct me to the money I supposedly received for my murdered grandparents? Better yet, can you give them back to me, alive?

Buckeye, not only are your arguments uneven and your facts incomplete, but I find you to be a profoundly insensitive person.

[Umm Kais]

Sorry, I meant when the Syrian workers left in 2005, not 1995...woops.

[fubar]

It looks like the LAF is ready to strike. They have all of their troops and equipment dug in around the camp. They are now bringing up "luxury items" which means they are ready to go.

Some news reports are reporting these "luxury items" to mean they are settling in for a long siege. Well, it could be but I doubt it as that is no way to win this war. If the LAF does not kick ass in a major way they will never recover from this. It is now or never for the LAF. The longer they wait, the more stressed their troops will be. You simply cannot maintain the attitude and adrenalin necessary for extended periods of time in a holding pattern without adversely affecting the fighting effectiveness of your men.

Just my opinion...

[Bad Vilbel]

Fubar,

Exactly. And the political leadership is now playing stupid political games and giving a change for a "political settlement". They should've just left the LAF do its job.

Charlie,

You've made some excellent fantastic points here about the Palestinian issue. Worthy of a headline post or something. bravo.

[Maya]

I have to agree with Solomon on this one. First of all, Israel did not throw out the Palestinians from their homes as most Arabs believe. They left by the thousands in the aftermath of the war of 1967 at the urge of other Arab countries, mainly Egypt and Saudi Arabia, who promised them that this would only be temporary until they defeat the Israelis again. Second, why should Israel absorb and provide a home to people who have no loyalty to Israel whatsoever and are bent on destroying it. That would be self destructive to Israel and if I was Israeli or Jewish, I would be totally against it. Israel made the Arabs that stayed behind citizens of Israel and what did they get in return? A group of 5th columnist who hate Israel and will never consider themselves anything but Palestinians. Lebanon has paid a huge price for sheltering the Palestinians. I find it apalling that they live in Lebanon and refuse to allow the army entry into their camps. Imagine Mexicans taking over neighborhoods in the States, planting a Mexican flag and declaring this land to be Mexican territory. While I agree that Palestinians who were born in Lebanon should be given Lebanese citizenship and that Lebanese mothers whould be able to pass citizenship to their children and husbands, I think this should be limited to Palestinians that have no military or political affiliation with Palestine, the PLO or Hamas. I say that because I don't want to see Beirut return to the chaos of the PLO thugs of the 70s and 80s who pillaged private properties and opened the gates of hell on Lebanon. I also think that a large reason why Israel is so prosperous and Gaza is a s**thole is due to the Palestinian's self destructive behavior and their cult of hatred and violence. Bill Gates bought the Green houses from Israel and donated them to the PLO after the Israelis withdrew from the settlements. Guess what they look like now? A junkyard. They destroyed everything. I also agree that other Arab countries should integrate the Palestinians, but you can live in the Gulf all your life, they will never make you a citizen. Yet, they expect the Israelis to do so. Anybody else sees the irony here! And for the gentleman who thinks that peace in the Middle East can only be achieved through a resolution to the Palestinian problem, I'm afraid you have a lot to learn about the Middle East. Lebanon's main problem is Syria, not the Palestinians and not Israel. Bin Laden's main problem with the US is not Palestine, but establishing the "Ummah", a Muslim califate, just like the times of the Ottoman Empire. Take some time and read one of his earlier speeches. His beef with the US was the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and not Palestine. Also Wahabism and Salafism which dominate the Gulf consider Shiism to be heresy. So while Nasrallah may seem supportive of Fatah El Islam now, don't get surprised if you see Fatah El Islam attack the Hizb one day. Ideologically they are ennemies who answer to one master, the Syrio/Iranian axis now, but the tide can turn very quickly. During the civil war, Hizb fought with Amal, both Shia militias, for the control of the Shia territory. Now they are buddies. The Middle East is a very complex place where alliances shift with the wind. Furthermore, the only solution to the Palestinian problem that will satisfy most Palestinians (their words, not mine, as I've heard it over and over again) is "for the Jews to go back to Europe or wherever the hell they came from" and give the state of Israel to the Patestinians. No gesture of good-will will ever redeem the Israelis in the eyes of the Arabs. They are despised and dehumanized by most, seen only as occupiers. Egypt, a country that signed a peace agreement with Israel allowed a show to air and presented it as a reality, not the fraud that it is. The name of the show is "The protocols of the Elders of Zion", an anti-semitic fraud created by the Okrona (Russian secret police) and embraced by many anti-semites. If you scratch the surface, you'll find that most Arabs think the same thing too. Anti-semitism is an Arab affliction that makes me ashamed of my heriatge whenever I come across it.

[Charlie]

BV,

Thanks for your comments on my earlier post.

BV/Fubar,

As I read the headlines this afternoon I am beginning to fear that the political establishment in Lebanon might be getting cold feet here. I wonder if Nas’s “red line” has contributed to this! In any case, they should realize that the winds of change are at their back and they must strike now…

[buckeye]

craig,
im sorry that i was not clear on my explaination. According to the evangelical prophecies (not all christians), and reiterated by pat robertson on the 700 club numerous times, that in order for the second coming of christ to happen, israel first, must be a purely jewish state, meaning get rid of ALL palis/arabs. after which solomon's temple would be built, and after that, jesus would come back and a massive battle would ensue. that is when the jews, according to their prophecies, must accept jesus as their savior or be killed.
my point about israel putting its hand with the hand of the christian coalition (extremely powerful lobby), would mean their demise, would be for israel to show good faith in accepting a peace agreement and help resolve the pali problem. the saudi initiative is a reasonable one and is as close as we will get.
as for solomon,
in 1948, the palis were kicked out. that is not an old wives tale, perhaps you may want to ask the many palis that are still waiting for their homes that were taken from them. and second, it is a fact that germany compensated the holocaust survivors. perhaps you may want to ask the people in charge of that task, and do some research. about five years ago, there were nazi swiss accounts that they finally got their hands on as well. please save me the drama. iam not insensitive, just pointing out facts that you have a problem accepting.
many arab jews still live peacefully in arab countries as well as in iran w/o problems. so if they were all pushed out, there would be none left now. there is even a website dedicated to the lebanese jews that still live in lebanon.
solomon, misdirected anger is not going to change facts.
peace.
buckeye

[buckeye]

oh, by the way craig, i know falwell died recently and he was buried several days ago. just making the point of his ideology which is the same as robertson.

[Roman Kalik]

Buckeye,

You assume that Israel shares the ideology of Pat Robertson and Company, rather than sharing an alliance of interests. Pan Robertson and Co. want Israel to exist, Israel wants Israel to exist. Good for Israel. Nowhere does it say that Israel has to pay attention to Pat Robertson's opinions on any kind of policy beyond nodding and smiling without actually listening to them.

You make interesting religious assumptions about a state founded by people who were mainly secular (and even ultra-atheist) social-democrats. Have you actually bothered checking the facts?

You also assume that the Jews in Palestine were responsible for the Palestinians leaving, rather than the great big war that happened to occur at the time. You know, the one with all those great big armies lining up at the borders.

As for Jews not being driven out... The Jews of Iraq were driven out. The Jews of Jordan were driven out. The Jews of Egypt were driven out. The Jews of Morocco mostly left of their own free will, pursuing the dream of Israel. The Jews of Lebanon mostly left due to the general sectarian strife. The Jews of Yemen mostly left due to centuries of religious oppression.

This is just a small taste of history for you. This you would know if you bothered to read in detail rather than take generalist statements at face value.

[Roman Kalik]

Maya, thank you for your post, though I think you skipped a couple decades at the start there. :)

[Craig]

Hi Buckeye,

This isn't the place to discuss religion, but I'll make one comment on this, just on the off chance that you are really interested in what American Christians - and really all Christians, I would presume - believe :)

According to the evangelical prophecies (not all christians),

There is no such thing as "Evangelical Prophecy" - you are referring to the Book of Revelation, the last book of the New Testament.

You are correct that it is highly controversial, because it is not based on the teachings of Jesus, but is rather a prophecy (based on a dream that John had, not Jesus) of the End of Days.

However, controversial or not, it is in ALL Christian Bibles. And it has been for as long as there have been Bibles.

in order for the second coming of christ to happen, israel first, must be a purely jewish state, meaning get rid of ALL palis/arabs.

The Holy Land must be Jewish land, yes. There is nothing in the New Testament about Palestinians. Jerusalem is clearly not 100% Jewish in Revelations, because Gentiles are also mentioned - and not in a flattering way, which is pretty good evidence that the early followers of Jesus considered themselves to be Jews. after which solomon's temple would be built

Actually it mentions the Temple of God, which is assumed to be the Second Temple (of Solomon) which was destroyed by the Romans in 73 AD. It is to be raised into the Heavens. And from there (the Temple of God) the Angels of God issue forth to bring plagues and other punishments which destroy the better part of humanity.

It can hardly be raised to the Heavens if it doesn't exist, can it? The Dome of the Rock:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock

is where the Second Temple used to be. So, evangelists believe that the Dome of the Rock has to go, so that the temple can be rebuilt.

I agree with them, but not because of the Book of Revelation. Rather, because that is the holiest site there is for Jews and Christians both, and there is absolutely no reason for Muslims to have yet ANOTHER Holy site, there. Muslims don't share Holy Sites anyway, and so to hell with them. Christians and Jews have a right to have access to their most holiest of places.

But as far as scripture, the timeline in revelations is like a river. It moves forwards and backwards and it's very difficult to figure out what is happening, and when. I don't have any problem with the idea that the second temple was raised to the heavens in 73 AD when the Romans tore it down.

and after that, jesus would come back and a massive battle would ensue.

Yep. Descends from heaven on Mount Zion. That's in Jerusalem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Zion

that is when the jews, according to their prophecies, must accept jesus as their savior or be killed.

No, that is utter and complete nonsense. I doubt any Christian has ever said such a thing. I don't want to get into how the battle lines are drawn between followers of Christ and followers of the anti-Christ, but religion has nothing to do with it.

my point about israel putting its hand with the hand of the christian coalition (extremely powerful lobby)

It's not an "extremely powerful lobby" - it's as powerful as the number of Christian voters they can deliver to the polls on election day. No more, and no less.

I'm not an Evangelical Christian, by the way. They get on my nerves, actually. I'm giving you the strait scoop, here. As best I can, at least.

would mean their demise, would be for israel to show good faith in accepting a peace agreement and help resolve the pali problem.

Good faith. That's the problem, isn't it? There isn't any trust. And there probably never will be. Too much has happened. I suggest not relying on "good faith" or trust in any kind of peace deals between Arabs and Israelis, because there won't ever be any. I think a traditional manner of negotiating a peace agreement is a better approach - a deal that both sides find to be acceptable, even if it is not exactly what they want. An agreement that leaves both parties satisfied with the outcome is sufficient guarantee, most of the time.

the saudi initiative is a reasonable one and is as close as we will get.

The right of return is a deal breaker, unless Palestinians only have the right to return to the Palestinian state. I would assume Israel will never accept a "right of return" for Palestinians to live as citizens in the Jewish state.

Is that what is being offered?

OK, enough religion! And enough "mid-east peace process" for me. I gave up on that idea a long time ago, and I don't even have a dog in that fight except when people drag my country into it.

[Roman Kalik]

Good faith. That's the problem, isn't it? There isn't any trust. And there probably never will be. Too much has happened. I suggest not relying on "good faith" or trust in any kind of peace deals between Arabs and Israelis, because there won't ever be any. I think a traditional manner of negotiating a peace agreement is a better approach - a deal that both sides find to be acceptable, even if it is not exactly what they want. An agreement that leaves both parties satisfied with the outcome is sufficient guarantee, most of the time.

Exactly so. This is the best summary of the situation as it is.

The right of return is a deal breaker, unless Palestinians only have the right to return to the Palestinian state. I would assume Israel will never accept a "right of return" for Palestinians to live as citizens in the Jewish state.

Correct. There's also the matter of specific borders not being negotiable, but the right of return is the true baddie. We cannot handle such a population influx economically, we cannot survive with a hostile population influx as a stable country, and it would effectively make Israel into Palestine II.

[Jeha]

It is premature to talk about the issue of civil rights; short of regional economic integration, there is no solution.

When a peaceful settlement comes, I think the entire issue could be sidestepped/solved once the Palestinian/Israeli track moves. Palestinians could then have a citizenship, and an automatic residency/work permit in Lebanon.

We'd also have to give full equality to women, whilst not recognizing multiple marriages; a problem in itself in Lebanon.

In any case, this would mean a multilateral track, or at least a bilateral Lebanese/Palestinian track, since both our fates are intertwined.

[vox]

Speaking of Hersh, look at what this idiot said.

I got an email the other day, and I have not checked this out, from somebody who was in the community, in the intelligence community and still consults with the community, he says, “Why don’t we ask more about the American arms that the fighters of Fatah al-Islam have, are brandishing?” I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I did get that email. And so, that could be true. Both Saudi money and American money, not directly, but indirectly, was fed into these groups.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=13759

Can you believe that the source of the opposition's conspiracy theories is a stupid email that Hersh received??

[eRamzi]

new post!!!! lol :P

[Bad Vilbel]

I received an email the other day that said I could enlarge my penis AND refinance my house for free...

I don't know if it's true, but i did get that email!

Gosh, I sure hope old Seymour didn't get that same email. If he's that gullible, he's probably being fleeced of his last penny by now.

[fubar]

BV

I was working on a post but then I saw yours and...delete.

LOL

[Maya]

I did not read all the comments so i might be repetitive : Lebanese political turmoil wont be solved without a regional solution for the Middle east conflict - Sad, but true

[Bad Vilbel]

Fubar,

Sorry to steal your thunder ;)

[Craig]

Vox,

"Why don’t we ask more about the American arms that the fighters of Fatah al-Islam have, are brandishing?”

So, Hersh asks this question, without trying to get it answered?

I haven't seen a single photo Fatah Al Islam that showed US made weapons.

Fatah al-Islam, photos

On that site, one guy is holding a (Soviet) PK Machine gun:

Soviet PK Machine Gun

Another guy is carrying a (Soviet) RPG:

Soviet RPG

And a third guy is carrying some sort of (Soviet) AKSU variant:

Soviet AKSU

We should be looking at where HAMAS gets it's American made weapons. That would be a good question to have the answer to, because they didn't get those weapons from the US, which means they got them from a third party that does have access to purchasing US weapons.

But I am REALLY surprised a super-sleuth like Seymour Hersh would make an implication like that without even bothering to ask somebody. Anyone who has ever been in the US military can spot (and name) Soviet Weaponry. Seymour knows at least one person who has been in the US military, right? Or, does he? Maybe not.

[vox]

Even if they are using american weapons, it doesn't mean anything. If Fatah-al Islam is using Kalashnikovs, you can't infer that Russia is behind them. Same for US weapons. You can get all kind of light weapons on the black market.

[Craig]

Sorry, bad link on the AKSU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AKS-74U

I looked at all the pcitures and there are actually 2 guys in that group with AKSUs and 2 with RPGs.

Way down at the bottom there is a guy holding a variant of a US made M16, but it's a civilian model, not a military model (military never made one with a short barrel/long handguards like what is shown).

[Craig]

Even if they are using american weapons, it doesn't mean anything.

Yes, you are right. My question is why Seymour Hersh would have made an implication that they were armed by the US when they obviously are not using American weaponry. It's the obvious untruth of the claim that bugs me.

[Bad Vilbel]

Answer:

Because Hersh is an idiot.

[maverick]

Craig maybe you can email hershy,detailing the specifics of weaponry,send a few attachments of the mercenaries carrying Soviet made weapons.Maybe you can shut this guy up about the subject,or maybe he wont believe you because its not his style to believe actual factual evidence.

[maverick]

email him at SeymourDisinformation@Hershmail.com

[another_someone]

mmmmmm, cho-co-laaate...

[Maya]

Maya from NYC,

You posted the following "I did not read all the comments so i might be repetitive : Lebanese political turmoil wont be solved without a regional solution for the Middle east conflict - Sad, but true

Posted by: Maya | Monday, May 28, 2007 at 01:20 PM"

which is in contradiction to what I had said in my previous comment. Can you kindly change your user ID to distinguish it from mine? I think I had been a guest to this blog long before you. If you had been here before me, let me know and I will change my user ID to something else.

Thanks much

[Maya]

Buckeye,

Do you honestly believe that any minorities, not just Jews, can live peacefully in Iran without having to live submissively? Minorities - Bahai, armenians, assurians, jews, etc. are persecuted in Iran. Everyone who does not obey the mullahs is a target in Iran, but especially those from a different faith. The Jewish community leader was unjustly executed by the Islamic Revolutionary Tribunal in 1979. I don't know if you are Lebanese, but if you are, can you honestly say that most Lebanese respect Jews or trust them? I have heard countless of times people say "I am not a Jew" in response to someone accusing them of being cheap. It is never used in a flattering way. I know there was a Jewish community living in Wadi Abu Jmil, but I doubt there are more than a handful of old people there now. They all left because Lebanon is not a safe place for them, hell the entire Arab world is not a safe place for them. And I cannot blame them. The same goes for the myth that they or the Christians lived peacefully under Islamic rule during the Caliphate. They did, but not on their terms. They had to pay taxes and their testimony in a court of law was not equal to that of a Muslim. Imagine going to a judge and reporting that your neighbor wronged you. If he says he did not and happened to be Muslim, his word was trusted over yours. That is exactly what happens in Saudi Arabia now as a non Saudi's testimony is superior to that of a Saudi, regardless of religion. There were also several waves of massacres against Jews in Morocco, Lybia, Algeria and Egypt. I don't particularly like the Jewish lobbies in the US and I certainly despise Sulzberger, the Liberal Jew that control the New York Times and publish US national secrets that aid our ennemies every day, but fair is fair. If most Israelis feel the same anger and hatred that I always sense in Solomon's comments, there is no hope for peace between our people. In the US, most Americans put their country ahead of their religion any day and religion is a personal choice. We need to learn to do that in order to move forward and recognize our faults, not convince ourselves that they never existed. Learn from our past and become all the better for it.