Nahr El Bared returns to Lebanon

The Lebanese army is acting to "finish off" the terrorists in the Nahr El Bared refugee camp, after receiving a green light Monday from the Lebanese cabinet, and political cover from the Palestinian factions, who are now concerned about the civilian death toll. The army is now reportedly moving into the camp and arresting some of the terrorists.

Months after Palestinian factions lost control of the camp to the Syrian-intelligence Islamist creation, the terrorists felt they could get away with massacring Lebanese soldiers and terrorizing Lebanese citizens. More details have emerged about what transpired Sunday morning. According to As-Safir, an ISF investigation into a bank robbery accidentally led the police to an apartment in Tripoli that members of Fatah al-Islam used as a base. The Islamists reacted to the police operation by attacking a Lebanese army post near the Nahr El Bared refugee camp, slaughtering 17 Lebanese army soldiers in their sleep, and ambushing others on leave in Qalamoun and Koura. The terrorists' weapon of choice: suicide attacks. As-Safir said the ISF and the Army intelligence had been monitoring the movements of Fatah al-Islam for months. They succeeded in apprehending over a dozen members, but the camp was off limits to them.

The terrorist group, implicated in a terrorist attack last February, and reportedly charged with killing politicians and attacking UNIFIL troops, as well as killing "crusaders and Zionists", had been trying to extend its zone of influence to the international highway connecting Lebanon to Syria. The group often clashed with other Palestinian factions, especially Fatah, which accused it at various points in time of being controlled by Syrian intelligence. There have been attempts by local camp leaders to hand over suspects in the Ain Alaq bombings to the Lebanese authorities, but these attempts failed.

The residents of the Nahr El Bared camp are today hostages, used as human shields by the terrorist gangs. Negotiations are under way to secure a safe passage out of the camp and relief convoys made their way into the camp. The terrorists, many of whom had no qualms about blowing up civilians in Iraq, could not care less. The Lebanese army denied it was targeting civilians, as networks such as Aljazeera is trying to feed people across the globe, stirring up misplaced pro-Palestinian sympathies, and helping Fatah al-Islam sell their cause to other Islamists from Bangladesh to Morocco.

The Palestinian factions, meanwhile, have been urging the army to avoid shelling the camp, while at the same time agreeing to root out Fatah al-Islam. Fatah official Sultan Abou Al-Ainayn warned of an intifada in all refugee camps if the Lebanese army continued the shelling (LBC News). Tens of refugees took to the narrow streets of their camps in the south to protest against the shelling of Nahr El Bared. The Lebanese army does not have a choice. For the longest time, the Lebanese state has not been allowed in those camps. The Palestinian factions spend their time fighting each other, and splintering into mini groups. These camps have become havens for terrorists and bases for Syrian intelligence. If the lives of Palestinian refugees really mattered to their leaders, then they should hand over their weapons to the authorities and quit stealing international aid.

The Siniora government is waging this war with the support of the international community and the Arab League, which issued a statement supporting the army's operation. The "opposition", meanwhile, continues its occupation of downtown Beirut, even as the city is being targeted on a daily basis. Hizbullah today issued a statement describing the events in the north as an "American project", and ignoring, once again, the destructive role Fatah al-Islam is playing (LBC News). As the Lebanese army storms the Islamist hell, armed with unprecedented popular support, Hizbullah stands on the other side of that hell, feeling the heat of the rule of law. 

Comments

[Shunkleash]

I wish it were true that HA, Nassrallah, Berri, aoun, Franjieh and every other freakin politician in this country could feel the heat but it appears thay are all well insulated. Some it appears have never even seen a kitchen or a frying pan for that matter.

In the meantime I continue to back the lebanese army in what they are doing and hope that they will not have sacrificed their lives in vein.

AYESH LUBNAN!!!

shunkleash (PBUH)

[Charlie]

The Army must press on, there is no middle ground on this battle. Hopefully, when this is over the PFLP-GC bases are next!!

[maverick]

Maybe Sinioura has a spine after all.When all this upheaval simmers down,all the confusion of circulating rumours ceases,when the smoke disapears,i hate to entice the occasional government basher/Syrian apologist here,but this project reaks of Syrian fingerprints as evidently shown.should be interesting to hear the political bickering after the excitements died down.is it just going to be another subject de jour for the opposing camps to throw insults about or is there something solid materializing of this lesson.

[Blacksmith Jade]

Great roundup Abu Kais!

[JoseyWales]

Hizbullah today issued a statement describing the events in the north as an "American project"

OK Hezbo. So let's say the Fatah el Islam are American agents or stooges trying to stir up things, right?

If you believe that, then you should side 200% behind the army's dismantling of that group.

Am I missing something, besides the fact that Fatah el-Islam is close to people who want to kill Shia and declared them heretics?

[fubar]

TRIPOLI, Lebanon (AP) -- Thousands of people fled a crowded refugee camp Tuesday night during a lull in three straight days of clashes between Lebanese troops and Islamic militants holed up inside, Associated Press reporters at the scene said.

AP Television News video from the Nahr el-Bared refugee camp showed women clutching children and piling up in pickup trucks, some waving white flags, as they tried to leave the partially destroyed camp.

Others fled on foot, and ambulances could be seen evacuating the wounded.

U.N. relief officials in another camp located a few miles to the south of Tripoli said they expected 10,000 Palestinian refugees from Nahr el-Bared to arrive through the night.

Refugees from Nahr el-Bared were seen raising white towels from windows and even waving white plastic bags. Boys carried babies, and a young boy and a woman helped an elderly woman, hurriedly walking on the side of the road as cars sped past carrying more refugees.
Many of the packed cars driving out had their windows blasted from the fighting.
. . .

The Bush administration reaffirmed its support for Saniora's government Tuesday and indicated it suspected Syrian involvement.

White House spokesman Tony Snow said the Fatah Islam militants want to disrupt the nation's security and distract international attention from a U.N. effort to establish a special tribunal try suspects in the 2005 assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri in Beirut.

The United States "will not tolerate attempts by Syria, terrorist groups or any others to delay or derail Lebanon's efforts to solidify its sovereignty or seek justice in the Hariri case," Snow said.

****

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Lebanon has asked the United States for $280 million in military assistance to help put down an uprising by al-Qaida-inspired militants operating from a Palestinian refugee camp, the State Department said Tuesday.
About $220 million would go to the Lebanese Armed Forces and another $60 million to security forces, spokesman Sean McCormack said. He added that the United States is weighing the request.

The assistance would represent a significant increase over previous years. McCormack said $40 million in equipment and training was sent in 2006 and about $5 million is earmarked for the current year.

[ghassan karam]

This is welcome news and I hope that it will serve as an omen for things to come. Sovereignty is a concept that comes in only one size, if sovereignty is not total then it is meaningless. The current geopolitical structure would suggest that regaining control over the islands within Lebanon that the government had to cede control of in 1969 is a attainable. What is more difficult to assertain is whether we will be able to liberate ourselves from the locally imposed tyranny of the minority. That will be the real test on which Mr. Saniora has not delivered yet. My only hope is to see him deliver on the overdue internal liberation. By accomplishing that he would have earned the eternal gratitude of a thankful nation , he would be credited for all time with the salvation of the country ( Hell, he would even redeem himself in the eyes of this Lebanese compatriot:-))

[another_sonmeone]

fubar,

The math does not make sense.

"McCormack said $40 million in equipment and training was sent in 2006 and about $5 million is earmarked for the current year."

$5 million for 07 of which $280 million will be delivered soon? Thats some wicked currency.

[fubar]

another someone,

No, you are misreading. $5 million is, and has been, approved for LAF for 2007.

Now, Siniora is requesting $280 million. Approval of the $280 million request(a huge increase from $5 million already approved) is pending.

[another_someone]

Thanks for the clarification. I thought if they approved $40 million last year, then surely this year is at least equal to, or greater than, last year's.

I am impressed by the amount of trust given by this administration to this Lebanese government.

[BadVilbel]

Josey Wales,

There is simply no logic (and never has been) in Hezb's statements. I don't know why you're even trying to apply logic to it. Everything is an "American and Zionist project" when they wanna criticize it. There simply is no logic.

Fubar,

That is good news. Now write to your congressman to speed up approval of said $280M :)

Ghassan,

You're absolutely right. Sovereignty doesn't come in pieces. it's all or nothing.
This test is an easier one for Saniora to tackle than that of Hezb's weapons. But he's passing this test with flying colors. Baby steps. Today the minor Palestinian (allegedly) factions. Next the mainstream Palestinian weapons, and then Hezbollah. But those latter two will be much harder to maneuver. Taking on a small group that everyone agrees are terrorists is kind of a gimme. Not gonna be so easy when it comes to the other two.

[Charlie]

Fubar,

I guess what will be more interesting than the amount is the type of hardware they get in the package. I wonder if we will ever know. I would think Night vision and body armor should be high on the list..

[fubar]

Charlie,

Yeah, that is about the biggest difference (other than shear scope) between last summer and now, last summer most of the fighting occurred at night due to night vision. Now, the fighting stops at night.

BTW, nice to see that some of the LAF A-teams have come up from down south. Better command and control, more focused.

[Charlie]

Fubar,

Agree...One surprising thing I read though was the ability of the terrorists to bring in enforcements early on by sea from Syria...where in the “F” are the UN naval patrols? I thought they were tasked with stopping such movements!!

This battle doesn't require advance weaponry to be won by the LAF, sheer will power, determination and political support is all it takes, and so far the political establishment seems to be determined to finish this, let’s hope they stay the course..

[Renée]

Well, forgive my ignorance, but can the UNFIL folks do much more than take notes and complain since they're not under Chapter 7? Btw, I've already contacted my reps to encourage them to move this $upport for the Lebanese Army along. :-)

[fubar]

(Daily Star, Wed. May 23) Arab League chief Amr Moussa said Tuesday that some Arab countries had sent weapons to the Lebanese Army to boost its fight against Islamic militants, as world leaders continued to express their support for the government in fighting in North Lebanon. Moussa did not disclose which Arab states had supplied Lebanon with weapons, or the quantity of arms provided.

"But more weapons will be sent, should the need arise," Moussa said.

The League issued a statement condemning the "terrorist acts committed" by Fatah al-Islam, which it said "has nothing to do with Palestinians or Islam." The statement expressed "total support for the efforts exerted by the Lebanese government and Army to assert security and stability."

Jordan's King Abdullah II advised Prime Minister Fouad Siniora in a phone call on Tuesday that Lebanese authorities must "impose control over all parts of Lebanon," according to the official Petra news agency.

Kuwait strongly condemned the fighting in Lebanon, its Foreign Ministry calling Fatah al-Islam's actions "irresponsible, a breach of Lebanon's sovereignty, and a threat to its security, stability and national unity."

*********

No freakin' way. Arabs sending weapons to the LAF to fight Sunni terrorists. Has the world gone crazy?

Or is Lebanon the catalyst for the return of some kind of sanity?

Damn, what am I thinking, there must be a conspiracy in there somewhere. Better go talk to Nas and get his take on this shit...

[buckeye]

josey,
although i agree with your take on the hezbo take, i have to ask one question. if these militants were to actually have the ideology that shia are heretics and they are to fight for the sunni against the shia, then why did they plant the bombs in ashrafieh (christian) and verdun (sunni ) areas? if they want maximum impact of "getting rid" of shia, downtown beirut at the sit in would have done just as well or any of the suburban beirut area.
That being said, the army is doing a great job and still come under attack. may god be with them.
peace

[Bad Vilbel]

Fubar,

Nas will tell you it's a zionist conspiracy, of course...

More seriously, though. This is very interesting. I think it is the first time in my 35 years on this planet that I can recall the Arab league (minus Syria) being on the same page, and being proactive, rather than giving their usual flowery spiels. Good for us!

I'm feeling positive today (even though I still think things are gonna get much worse before they get better).

[Elmer Fudd]

I've been wondering... Has the government thought of asking for help from more experienced counter-terrorist units, such as the French GIGN or the Navy SEALs? I mean, there has been a precedent, and you don't want this battle to go on forever.
Cheers

PS: It's just a question, please nobody start with the whole American-French-Zionist conspiracy theory, we've heard it all!

[JoseyWales]

Buckeye,

No connection between Shia hate and Verdun/Ashrafieh (whether they did it or not).

These guys take their orders from outside, are not organized, are pawns, and pretty much hate everyone.

Re army's equipment, that's great.

But I don't believe these stories anymore. For the past 20 years we keep hearing: the army is strong, it was rebuilt, it is ready etc...

And in fact they are not and never have been. I am guessing that less than 10% of the 70,000 troop are really battle ready.

[Amir in Tel Aviv]

It's fascinating to read the Lebanese bloggers in the last last few days. As if the gates of suppressed nationalistic fever, had broke.
I advise you, Lebanese bloggers, to make 'Aliyah', and join the 'Likud'. Or better, go straight to Avigdor Lieberman's 'Israel Beiteinu'.
.

[Macemuscle]

While I have been a frequent reader, this the first time I'm commenting.

It continues to pain me greatly to see arabs/muslims fightings each other. It is true that "divide and conquer" is an excellent strategy. One that U.S./Israel are exceedingly adept at. The goal as always is to guarantee the continued existence of the state of Israel for the foreseeable future.

Having said that, I do believe for the sake of Lebanon’s sovereignty and security, that the so called Fatah al Islam (I say so called because putting the word Islam in the name of this group is a travesty and the behaviour of these thugs has nothing to do with Islam) have to be completely destroyed and all it’s members killed or captured and executed. Allowing these types of attacks against the army to go without consequences will lead to the creation of a 1,000 so called Fatah al Islams. Everyone will loose any confidence they have in the army and the Lebanese security forces which will give them to perfect excuse to re-arm. This will surely lead to Lebanon War 2.0.

So I am cautiously optimistic with the government's tough stance on this issue. However, crushing the militants is a very delicate matter. I, like many (I would hope everyone), have a lot of sympathy towards the plight of the Palestinians who are caught in the cross fire. The army has to strike decisively, but they are risking a huge backlash. Perhaps the best way to deal with this is to get the mainstream PLO to storm the camp and capture or kill all the militants (so that the army can keep it’s hands clean). Any militants captured should be handed over to Lebanese government promptly. The government has to show how serious it is about the attacks on the army by quickly executing the militants (after extracting the necessary intelligence of course). I see no other choice that would not compromise security in Lebanon.

[shamefulneseseses]

Fatah is backed by Syria, how could they have called Fatah al islam syrian backed agents? This has never happened, and if it did, please provide evidence.

The very fact that Fatah, which is backed by Syria, is clashing with this group means Syria is in no way with them.

Also, Palistinian groups are calling for a cease-fire, and all information suggesting that some palistinian factions in Nahr al Bared are deploying militants to help out the army, is false. Today the Fatah leader in Lebanon sent a letter to AlJazeera denying any such moves have happened.

Therefore half your information is wrong my friend, please correct it.

[Shunkleash]

I wish everyone would just stop whining about the poor downtrodden palestinians.

They are not our problem! They were forced on us because of an ancient spent FORCE called Pan Arabism. More correctly, they are the problem of the arab states who wish to keep them in perpetual limbo and to use them as convnenient tools in the never ending violence that plagues the ME. In any event it is clear that the fugees are not as innocent as we are told to beleive but rather for the most part are willing participants. It is only when they realise that serious shit is going to come down on them collectively they begin to whine about cease fires and massacres etc etc blah blah blah.

I am concerned more about the lebanese people and ensuring that potential massacres of MY PEOPLE are avoided. If the fugees are to suffer the conseqeunces of their own action/inaction then so be it. Regretably, better them than us.

Until such time as our dear fraternal brothers in the arab world decide to stop using them as pawns in their sick games I do not sympathise. Until the "paletinians" or more appropriately the "Jordanian bedouin nomads" themselves rise up to tell their masters enough is enough and start to take control of their own destiny, I will not sympathise.

As for using any other entity but the lebanese army to totally eardicate the scum in the camp I SAY SCREW THAT IDEA. It will merely perpetuate the nonsense that goes on in the camps now and will legitmise their continued bearing of arms. Can you imagine the palestinians are some sort of "special brigade" of the lebanese army. LOL...very funny indeed!

As for all the crack smoking hypocrites who continue to belch the well trodden conspiracy of the US/Zionist agenda. PLEASE grow up or better yet SHUT UP!!! You need to start using your brain matter...or actually get a job and work for a living.

Shunkleash (PBUH)

[ghassan karam]

Macemuscle,
The first sentence in your post begs the question: Why should Moslems fighting moslems pain you more than say Americans fighting Koreans or Serbs fighting Frenchmen etc... I would have thought that what should be painful is the act itself and not the religious belief or national origin of the fighters.

[BadVilbel]

Fatah is backed by Syria? HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAA!

Syria spent the best part of the 1980s eradicating any semblance of influence the PLO and mainstream Fatah had in the Lebanon camps. That was after the Israelis pounded Arafat and his men into Tunis in 1982.

The various offshoots (Ahmed Gibril's PFLP-General Command, Abu Musa's Fatah-Intifada) were created for that very purpose.

The fact that the main Palestinian armed presence in Lebanon during the Syrian era was that of Gibril's PFLP-GC should be telling.

Well, not to mention the War of the Camps back in the 1980s during which Syria, Amal, The PSP and various other Palestinian factions took on mainstream Fatah.

Not to mention that Syria harbors Hamas leaders in Damascus, and openly backs Hamas over Abbas' Fatah in Gaza.

But why bother with historical facts when we can make up our own fantasy world, like Shamefulness does. Eh?

[M.]

hehe, Ghassan, I've actually been hearing that alot from friends. It IS an odd statement, isn't it?

[Charlie]

shamefulneseseses You are by far the worst spin doctor I have ever seen. Your BS may fly with people that are not aware with the events of the last 20 or so years!! But lots of us are and lived through it..
So go help your other buddy Son and sell BS some place else!! Hurry to your tent homie...

[Macemuscle]

ghassan karam,
When the Serbs invade France, or U.S. attacks Korea, I'll be sure to feel sorry for them :-))

Shunkleash,
I really feel sorry for you... people like you want to blame an entire nation for the acts of the few... people like you convince themselves that an certain races, religions or culture are sub-human and don't deserve to be treated with dignity and respect... that it is ok to kill their women and children or it is acceptable for them to live in poverty and misery... people like you is why history is full of tragedies like what the Nazis did to the Jews, Turks to the Armenians, Europeans to the native Americans, the Spanish Inquisition, Sabra and Chatila massacres, etc etc etc

Also, if you feel that the events happening in the middle east now are all coincidences and have nothing to do with the U.S./Israel at all... well then I have a nice beachfront property that I'm sure you'd like to buy :-))

You need to open your eyes... may be do a little travelling and live and work abroad and get to really know how people here in the west think

[Abu Kais]

I keep banning him but he uses different IPs. Shame guy, you are not welcome here. I'll keep deleting your comments if I have to.

[BadVilbel]

I said the exact same thing. I said FATAH, not FATAH AL-INTIFADA. 2 different animals.

Besides, This guy is a troll. I won't be replying anymore. Enjoy your childish idiocy.

[Umm Kais]

Did you know that Wikipedia is now the ultimate TRUE source of information? WOW. Make sure you all use wiki-facts and Seymour Hersh as sources for your next Middle East term papers kiddies! (Oh oh oh, and "Middle East for Dummies" as well)

Since when is being anti-Assad right-wing? By the way, "dikhead" is actually spelled D-I-C-K-H-E-A-D.

[Charlie]

AK,

This retard is trying to flood the site. He is even now playing an old trick that is used a lot in stock chat rooms where the same person having a conversation with himself to prove he is right for all to see...these clowns must be getting really desperate!!

[Umm Kais]

BV--we can only hope that "survival of the fittest" gets applied NOW for people like that.

[Roman Kalik]

I really feel sorry for you... people like you want to blame an entire nation for the acts of the few... people like you convince themselves that an certain races, religions or culture are sub-human and don't deserve to be treated with dignity and respect... that it is ok to kill their women and children or it is acceptable for them to live in poverty and misery... people like you is why history is full of tragedies like what the Nazis did to the Jews, Turks to the Armenians, Europeans to the native Americans, the Spanish Inquisition, Sabra and Chatila massacres, etc etc etc

Also, if you feel that the events happening in the middle east now are all coincidences and have nothing to do with the U.S./Israel at all... well then I have a nice beachfront property that I'm sure you'd like to buy :-))

Macemuscle, does that mean that you also object to indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians, or are we all just Evil Zionazi Land Thieves (little babies included) and deserve to be blown up in buses or torn apart by Nas’s Ball-Bearing Surprises?

Nevermind that though, your conspiracy theory, victim mentality, and inability to hold Arabs accountable for their own actions fully (instead seeking some Great Outside Enemy to unite your ranks, Nasser-style) speak volumes. You make pretty humanist arguments, but only for Muslims.

I wish everyone would just stop whining about the poor downtrodden palestinians.

They are not our problem! They were forced on us because of an ancient spent FORCE called Pan Arabism. More correctly, they are the problem of the arab states who wish to keep them in perpetual limbo and to use them as convnenient tools in the never ending violence that plagues the ME. In any event it is clear that the fugees are not as innocent as we are told to beleive but rather for the most part are willing participants. It is only when they realise that serious shit is going to come down on them collectively they begin to whine about cease fires and massacres etc etc blah blah blah.

I am concerned more about the lebanese people and ensuring that potential massacres of MY PEOPLE are avoided. If the fugees are to suffer the conseqeunces of their own action/inaction then so be it. Regretably, better them than us.

Until such time as our dear fraternal brothers in the arab world decide to stop using them as pawns in their sick games I do not sympathise. Until the "paletinians" or more appropriately the "Jordanian bedouin nomads" themselves rise up to tell their masters enough is enough and start to take control of their own destiny, I will not sympathise.

As for using any other entity but the lebanese army to totally eardicate the scum in the camp I SAY SCREW THAT IDEA. It will merely perpetuate the nonsense that goes on in the camps now and will legitmise their continued bearing of arms. Can you imagine the palestinians are some sort of "special brigade" of the lebanese army. LOL...very funny indeed!

As for all the crack smoking hypocrites who continue to belch the well trodden conspiracy of the US/Zionist agenda. PLEASE grow up or better yet SHUT UP!!! You need to start using your brain matter...or actually get a job and work for a living.

Dear God, the time of miracles is at hand. Shunkleash, all I can say is… welcome to the club. ;-)
But at the same time, pounding a civilian-packed refugee camp with artillery to hit 200 jihadis is total overkill by any standards, Israeli ones included. The jihadis will survive to the last(they have more training in surviving than the average camp civilian), the Palestinian civilians will lie dead, and you will have a full-scale Intifada on your hands without any benefits whatsoever. Unless you know exactly in which buildings the Fatah el-Islam goons are hiding and are firing directly at those (taking possible civilian casualties into consideration as unavoidable), you’re shooting yourself in the foot here.

You have to send in ground forces into the camps, and clean them of the jihadi infestation one after the other. This maximizes security gains, and minimizes the risk of civilian casualties and a potential total revolt of the kind that your army will be unable to contain. Your armed forces are generally poorly armed, poorly trained, and there’s precious few of them in the first place. You have several elite units that can handle one camp at a time, but not all of them together. I know you’re angry, you have every right to be angry, but you have to do this smart or today’s solution will become tomorrow’s problem.

Unless you’re willing to level whole camps, as the late King Hussein of Jordan did when the PLO started an armed revolt. Take care where that thinking may lead you. The Hashemite Dynasty was wise and capable enough to ruthlessly massacre with one hand and integrate with the other, thus creating a better future for the nation as a whole. Can you honestly say that your politicians are capable of such-long reaching thinking? Or of implementing said thinking?

By the way, I’m pleasantly surprised to note that they’re smart enough to make use of the situation for more military aid. I was just commenting on another Lebanese blog that this is the obvious and required step forward to strengthen Lebanese sovereignty.

[Macemuscle]

Roman Kalik,
I think you need to go back and re-read what I said because one of the examples I gave is what the Nazis did to the Jews which should tell any intelligent person (obviously not you) that the point I was making is that I am (indeed all of us should be) against any attacks on any civilians (innocent Israelis included) in response to what our "friend" Shunkleash was saying regarding how he felt that Palestinians including innocent women and children somehow deserve what is happening to them because of the acts of a few thugs…

Also, I think I will give you a good price on that beach front property :-))

My advice to you is the same as my advice to Shunkleash… go travel around a bit, live and work abroad and get a broader perspective on the world… while you’re at it, educate yourself a bit on world history…

[Roman Kalik]

I think you need to go back and re-read what I said because one of the examples I gave is what the Nazis did to the Jews which should tell any intelligent person (obviously not you) that the point I was making is that I am (indeed all of us should be) against any attacks on any civilians (innocent Israelis included) in response to what our "friend" Shunkleash was saying regarding how he felt that Palestinians including innocent women and children somehow deserve what is happening to them because of the acts of a few thugs…

I have, at times, discussed matters with Hezb supporters who spoke in one way about historical events (to show how open-minded good people they are) and in quite another about the Evil Land and Water Thieves of which your truly is apparently a member of. Don't take this as an insult against your person. Rather, take this as an indication of the kind of people one chances to encounter on the Internet far too often than not.

As for your advice on world history and so on, you speak to a person who is an avid history reader, and familiar with the history of the international intrigue center that was Europe. I have also, unlike so many others who comment on the man, actually read the writings of Niccolo Machiavelli.

Now, here is what you fail to see. One, Israelis are not as adept at conspiracies as Arabs so often make themselves believe. Two, war in the Middle-East is not good for oil prices, thus not good for world economy, thus not good for the US at all. If you want to believe that the oil companies are some giant evil behemoth that runs the US behind the scenes (and that they are of the stupid get-rich-now-die-tomorrow kind), then I can see how you got to own that beach front property you mentioned.

And three... No one needs to divide the Arabs. They are quite adept at dividing themselves, all the way down to the clan level. And artificial attempts at imposing unity, such as the Nasserite way of starting a great big war to eradicate the Evil Colonialist Jews, have only achieved greater discord. Had you actually destroyed us, pan-Arabism would have died a great deal sooner in its attempts to find more and more unifying enemies and wars. This would have arguably benefited the evolution of your states as a whole, but it would have been better not to start said war in the first place, no?

And no, saying that you came to save the poor Palestinians doesn't work. Not after what pan-Arabism did to them over the decades, including the violent nationalistic groups in Palestine in the forties.

As for what Shunkleash said, I do not see him saying that innocents deserve the punishment of the thugs. I do see him saying that the not-so-innocent relatives of said innocents turned a blind eye to the thugs, and even supported them. The fact is, said thugs are now hiding among the innocents. Said innocents are going to get hurt, no matter what tactic is chosen to kill the thugs. Is it the fault of the soldier who comes to kill the thugs who set fire to his country that the thug is hiding behind innocents?

No, it is not. And if he does not shoot, then who will the thugs kill tomorrow? Or the day after that? Yes, one needs to minimize civilian casualties, but one must also realize that civilian casualties are unavoidable when one fights in civilian areas. And your soldiers are precious few, and badly trained to boot, which means both civilian and army casualties will only be higher. So make your choices.

[Roman Kalik]

By the way, Macemuscle... Don't insult the intelligence of those people you discuss with. You've done it more than once so far.

Many people have know their history, and have seen the world. But maybe, just maybe, many of them reached completely different conclusions than those you have...

[Roman Kalik]

And also, just maybe, some people see the world not just by looking at the past in a way that fits what we already believe to be true...