Nasrallah declares war on the state

Hassan Nasrallah's loud speech yesterday was a declaration of war on what's left of the Lebanese state. There was a time the Iranian-installed king of Lebanese Shias freely used the country as a vessel for his jihad: farms were set up to grow jihadists, houses hosted rockets and entrances to jihadi tunnels, and wars were launched to tickle the region's strongest and dumbest army, which invariably and reliably gave him what he wanted: death and destruction. Nasrallah's Lebanon, before the Hariri assassination planted the seeds of independence, was no more than a passage for his toys. The country's government and army were at his disposal, forwarding weapons and at times negotiating their purchase.

It is no surprise then that Nasrallah's number one enemy is an independent and sovereign Lebanon. His militia cannot survive more UNIFIL confiscations, and cannot afford an army and security agencies potentially purged of agents. His attack on the Hariri tribunal, and defense of the jailed leaders of the former security regime make great sense and should not come as a surprise. Why would he want anything that could rock his shrinking kingdom? If anyone still does not believe that Nasrallah substituted downtown Beirut for the southern border, read his speech on Sunday.

Nasrallah's speech renewed Bashar's war declaration from more than a year ago, and fused it with an Iranian green light to continue hijacking the country until kingdom come. Nasrallah did not waste time after returning from a rumored visit to Iran to transmit marching orders to his slaves: the Lebanese state needs to be overthrown, no presidential election, no national unity government, and no Hariri tribunal. My readers will remember similar calls made by Bashar's stooges in the country during the Berri-Hariri dialogue. I guess Ahmadinejad made his choice vis a vis his relations with the Saudis: it's our Gulf and you're trespassing, and we can kidnap those "blondes" anytime we please. The Syrian and Iranian reading of events intersect on the perception of a weak US government, failing in Iraq, and torn apart by domestic politics that the dictators, perhaps mistakenly, think would alter the current course. You can always count on dictators to see democratic dissent as a sign of weakness, and proof that they're winning the war.

Back in Lebanon, Nasrallah has made the bed Lebanon will be forced to lie in over the next 2 years- or until a new parliament is elected.

Speaking before 1,700 Hizbullah university students, Nasrallah admitted he was running his own state. "When you become a state, come back and demand that we don't [run our own]… Having a state depends on a strong army able to confront any Israeli attack."

After belittling the Lebanese army, he accused the Lebanese state—yes, this time it's not the cabinet, but the state—of conspiring against and killing its own people (i.e. Shias). 

Nasrallah linked this conspiracy to an attempt to take over Lebanon with assistance from the international community. He said the objective since the Hariri assassination (no comment on who killed him!) was to take over the cabinet, parliament and the presidency. But he assured Lebanese that the Syrian-installed president will "stay until the last second of his term", and described him as the "true defender of Lebanese national interests".

Nasrallah did not spare the Lebanese judiciary, which he accused of being subordinate to the UN commission investigating the Hariri murder. He attacked the Hariri tribunal bylaws for overriding the Lebanese judiciary, and said the only legitimate party who can review the tribunal is a cabinet headed by Lahoud (read this to mean the Assad regime).

Nasrallah described the four generals implicated in the Hariri assassination as "political prisoners" and said the Hariri tribunal's verdicts were pre-determined and "awaiting the endorsement of the court's bylaws before they're made public".

Nasrallah vetoed a president elected by March 14, warned that the government will not be able to control the army, announced the dialogue and the 19-11 formula dead, and laid out his new conditions: referendum or early elections.

There is no doubt that Nasrallah is feeling the heat. His fiery speech confirms the insincerity of his camp's time-buying tactics led by Nabih Berri over the past few months. For many of us, the war he officially declared on the Lebanese state has been ongoing since the removal of the Syrian cloak. 

It is clear, more than ever, that the battle for Lebanon is a battle against Hizbullah. 

Comments

[Jeha]

"Hezb Faghat Hezbollah, Rahbar Faghat Nasrallah!!"... ooops. Sorry...

Wrong language, wrong country, wrong decade, wrong century, wrong cause... He's sooo 9/10.

[Ibrahim]

hezbollah showed truley how the war is faught against israel
yesterday sayyed hassan nasrallah showed how it must be in lebanon after attacking the leaders of 14 march
long live hezbollah
long live nasrallah
long live harakit amal
long live nabih berri

[BadVilbel]

Good post, AK.

The good news (if one can spin some sort of positive on this) is that with every extreme step Nasrallah takes, he exposes himself to more people, for the true traitor and that he is.

Of course, that's a very small silver lining, compared to the catastrophe him and his masters have in store for Lebanon.

[Charlie]

Was there ever any doubt in Nasrallah and Berri's intentions!! HEZB is a totalitarian fascist organization, the only language it understands is force. Lebanon is a lot closer to a civil war today than ever. Perhaps someone can go to Pelosi and make sure to read Nas’s speech to her may be she can touch base with her new buddy Assad on this next time she is out shopping in old Damascus!!!

The lines are being drawn now at the regional level, a military hit on Iran could be in the cards in the next couple of months, M-14 and the rest of the non HA Lebanon better be ready for that…

[lazarus]

again, although well written, your post contains mainly opinions and few potent arguments. which lebanon exactly should battle hezbollah? defining this field of battle is key, but as of yet, no one has done so, without always falling back to the general but not very meaningful statement of "lebanon against HA."

- l.

[Abu Yussif]

From heroic defenders against Zionists to Iranian proxies. I just hope that one day Lebanon will see that any peace with Israel will have been less costly and more beneficial than any result that comes of this disaster. May that day come soon, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it.

[ghassan karam]

Need I say it again that the basic idea upon which Hesbollah is founded is incongrous with democracy independence and modernity. The war was not declared two days ago but was declared with the establishment of HA. Those who have chosen not to ask the right questions and those who have opted not to face reality are in a sence also responsible for the current state of affairs. But noe theless this tension between the two polarising ideas of whether Lebanon is to become a sovereign state or whether it is destined to continue its "existence" only to serve the interests of its neighbours was inevitable. In a sense I welcome it because unless we go through this difficult phase then no meaningful resolution to the conflict will arise. I am glad that Nassrallah has chosen to finally speak in unambiguous terms because this will help clarify and define the opposite positions. I for one have no doubt whatsoever that the HA side cannot win this fight. My only concerns have always been about the ability of the victors to lead us to the promised land. The current M14 leadership , in my opinion, will prevail but that is not a guarantee that they have the vision to transform the society into a non-sectarian, democratic responsible state. The current leadership has a historical role to play but they will be replaced by a new leadership before all of this period of turmoil is behind us.

[frankyb]

1,700 Hizbollah students???.....sounds a little scary,what does that mean? Is there an exclusive Hizbollah university where faculties of engineering and medecine teach courses leaning towards the Party principles?seeing all those females in Hijabs all looking the same reminds me of the Pink Floyd video "Another brick in the Wall"...conformity,uniformed cloned robotic like lifeless sleepwalkers all marching to the same hypnotic tune.What happened to a liberal education that Lebanese pride themselves with.Last time i checked there was no PSP graduation ceremony,or any other party for that matter.Nasrallah should pride himself with being one of the best if not the best Oroters of this era,for having so many lost sheep following his every word,and hopefully not before long the Shia can rise against this enslavement and realize Nasrallah was the worst thing that ever happened to them.My prayers go out to those brave Shiites who have broken the shackles already,and for those who are still in limbo...your country needs you.

[Battal Agha]

Poor, Poor Lebanon!!! I just wonder what is the next step. The wait and see situation is absolutely not acceptable. Do you accept that down town be hijacked by the so called opposition?Until when? I know it is difficult to think in terms of confrontation. However what are the options? Liberty is always conquered at a price... God bless ...

[Nick]

Well that's our summer holiday to Beirut cancelled.

The majority could of easily voted for a pro M14 speaker in 2005 but Saad Hariri wanted everybody to be part of new lebanon. M8 had clearly a different agenda.

Whatever will happen - Good will always conquer evil. We just hope no innocent children and women get caught up in this race for Lebanon!

God Bless Libnaan

[Homo Libanus]

Call me naïve, but I think we should go for a referendum, as Nasrallah suggested. Not a narrow one on the "if and how" of the tribunal. We need a much broader one on the nature of the country we want, including the existence of armed forces outside the army. If this works, great. If it does not, then it is time to split the country à la Yugoslavia. It will be painful, yes, but in the long term it will be better than the crap we are living with now.

[Mo]

How many of you proud patriots would happily give up all the land south of the Litani and the waters of the Litani so you can have your summer holidays in Lebanon? Without Hizbollah everything south of Tyre would now be Israeli Occupied territory with settlements. But im guessing that if your living in the beltway, detroit, paris or London, that doesnt really matter now does it.

[BadVilbel]

If we could pull it off, I'd actually love a referendum on EVERYTHING:

- Hezbollah's weapons: Yea or Nay.
- Tribunal: Yea or Nay.
- Lahoud to step down immediately: Yeah or Nay.
- Chebaa farms: Yea or Nay.
- Peace with Israel: Yea or Nay.

and so on.

But for that to be realistic, you'd need UN supervision of the vote, and parties like Hezb to actually accept the results (which they won't).

[Jeha]

Mo,

I would not give up any part of Lebanon. But that does not mean that I would have to tolerate any overlord, be it Syrian or Israeli. WITH Hezbo, we have Liberated the South at the expense of the rest of the country, much like Bashir liberated Lebanon at the expense of the South...

It is moronic to repeat others mistakes; all "leaders" have learned, except for Nasrallah. Of course, none of them were directly inspired by God; they were under the mistaken impression that "Khatimat al Anbiya'" was to be taken literally. Apparently, the Faqih did not send them the memo.

And I have not received the memo that informed me that nationalism has to be either/or!

Only in Lebanon people are stupid enough to infeodate their nationalism to others on the pretext that those guys happen to pray to the same God, or mispronounce the letter "p" in the same manner.

[ghassan karam]

The idea of a general referendum as suggested by Homo Libanus is ultimately the best solution to this crisis. Referendums are in essence democracy at its best. I would not be surprised if a developed country would actually start the practice of governing by referendum now that the technical problem of holding theses wide ranging opinion polls over a very short time. In such a system the so called leaders would become followers of the public will on any issues since these pols would function as agents that act only on our behalf, the citizens. Back to Lebanon, a freely held and contested referendum on the type of country and the kind of laws to be used, on the issues of sovereignty and freedom, on independence or subservience, on democracy and non sectarianism would be welcomed. If it so happens that a majority vote for subservience, authoritarianism, for theocracy and against civil rule then so be it. A democracy cannot thrive if the inhabitants are not willing participants . So yeas please let us have a referendum on all relevant issues and let the results be binding. I hope that enough people would vote in favour of the society that I aspire for but at the same time I am willing to accept the results that favour a different societal structure.

Mo,
If I have a vision for Lebanon then it is not one that is based on any kind of exclusivity. It is not a vision of a society to be enjoyed only by the inhabitants of the North or the mountains but it is a vision for all its citizens. And let me make another issue very crystal clear, I do not give a damn about anypersons race, religious affiliations, gender or sexual preferences. All what I care about is the integrity of a state, the idea of democracy and the concept of freedom and liberty. Unfortunately your note suggests that you do not share these rather lofty ideas. You care much more about social injustice that has been inflicted on a region or maybe even on a religious group. But my friend the solution for social injustice to a group within society is not to inflict a worse kind of tyranny over others. The right thing to do is to free yourself and free others at the same time. Unfortunately revolutions fail miserably when all what they do is to change roles, when the the exploited rebel to become those who are doing the exploiting. If you think that it was your efforts that have resulted in a liberation of a region then we are all very grateful provided that the cost of such liberation is not to exact a cost so high as to kill the very same state that you claim to serve. Very simply stated, we need to go beyond personalities and pledge allegiance to ideas. The politicians are not important but the ideas are immortal and are worth dying for.

[BadVilbel]

Too bad that such a referendum will never be allowed to happen by these so-called leaders we have (because it'd throw them all to the curb).

I am once again in agreement with your comments on the referendum, Ghassan, in that ultimately, it is the most democratic form of governance there is. It pretty much eliminates the middle man (these so-called leaders). But how would you even begin to make such refrendums binding?
Let's say we had a refrendum tomorrow, about the international tribunal, or peace with israel, or whatever, and 60% of the Lebanese people voted for an international tribunal. You really think a group like Hezbollah would simply aquiesce? Doubtful. They'd be holding protests and paralyzing the country (just as they do today), in the name of the 40% who opposed the tribunal (supposedly).
And so on...

Takes us back to the rule of law. For ANY system to work (including governance by referendum), there has to be an intrinsic grasp of the rules of the game, and an implicit agreement by all sides that they will accept the outcome of elections, referendums, etc. The rules must be absolute and applied without consideration for winners or losers.

Put it this way: We wouldn't be able to have a football league if everytime team A scored a touchdown (as defined by the rulebook), team B walked off the field.

[ghassan karam]

Bad,
You are right when you keep harping on the Rule of Law. Without it there is no such thing as a civil society. I am often reminded, whenever I hear your refrains about this issue, about the resolution of the Bush Gore presidential campaign. As soon as the Supreme court issued its ruling Gore made a TV appearance in short order in which he said I disagree with the interpretation but I accept it.

[BadVilbel]

Yup. I am reminded of that same exact moment in time (the 2000 election).

The Lebanese twilight zone version of those events would have Al Gore making a TV appearance, insulting the supreme court and calling them "agents of foreign powers" and accusing GW Bush and company of "scheming to hijack the US government." or somesuch. This would be quickly followed by all Democrat senators and congressmen refusing to show up on capitol hill and bringing the country to a standstill.

Can you imagine that?

[JoseyWales]

He says referendum, M-14 should jump on it.

Of course, it's not clear the constitution allows it. And two, the morons (M14, M8-plus-Berri) will argue for another 10 years about the framing of the questions.

As usual, not holding my breath, Seniora is only now THINKING about replacing the resigned ministers (talk about the proverbial generals, fighting the last war).

PS Mo, get a history book and figure out why the Israelis never invaded us before the PLO/Syrians/Hezbos sent weapons down there. And, yes I know it's not because they love me, but it's still a fact.

[Jeha]

Yep,

At the state of affairs in Lebanon, any referendum would be decided by the votes cast by Armantov and Kalashnikov... Maybe that's why many are stocking on "arguments" for the upcoming "debate".

[Mo]

Jeha,
Are you seriously trying to tell me that with the current govt. Lebanon does not have an overlord? Do you really believe that the US/European backing of the govt. doesn't come at a price? Given the choice of an overlord that today gives my people, and by my people I mean the Lebanese, dignity and strength and an overlord that arms my enemies and is intent on my people being weak, I know which I would choose.

All "leaders" have learnt what exactly? That now it is more profitable to be under the American wing rather than the Syrian wing? That the profits they made while Syria was in charge through massive corruption and the emptying of the state coffers were peanuts comapred to the amount they can steal from the World Bank loans? At least Nasrallah, who had $500 million in his pocket after the Summer war is still paying the mortgage on his house.

And what is this talk of liberating the South at the expense of and vice versa? Are we talking 2 seperate countries here? If you are aspiring to Western values, well hell, the US and the UK liberated Europe at the expense of their own and you say we can't even liberate one area of our nation if that means another area suffers? If we are going to be Lebanese, lets all be Lebanese, otherwise lets just go back to Phoenician city states and be done with it.

Ghassan,
What is it about my note that makes you think I don't share your "lofty" ideals? From what you write I think you need to take a look at your prejudices and beliefs about Hizbollah and the current government and those that represent it. Do you live in Lebanon my friend? If you do, surely you would know that these ideals od freedom, liberty and the integrity of the state are very marginal. If the govt. you support is so pure, how is it that friends and family of our countrys cabinet get all the best govt. contracts? How is it that while 90% of those destroying the Lebanese countryside through their unlicensed quarrying have been stopped and that the 10% that haven't are connected to govt. ministers? Hos is it, if we have a democracy, that it is the same families who are running the country decade after decade?

Do you believe Hizbollah are after running the country as a tyranny? Have you been to the Dahyieh ever? If Hizbollah were the tyrannical religious zealots you believe they are, would the Dahyieh not be a mini-Iran, all Shia, full of veiled women? But to be absolutely frank, even if they were 75% of what you think they are, I would rather live under them, in an honest coutnry (because you can ascribe any label you wish to them but dishonest is one you will never be able to evidence) than a country ruled by the likes of Jumblatt and Geagea who are for me the 2 faces of evil in Lebanon.

I care about social injustice yes. I dont care whether it is in Qana, Hanawai, Jounieh, Kaslik or Chouifet. I care that Lebanon is a country no longer run as a feudal manor for the select few. I care that Lebanon no longer appoints a person to a position because of his or her religion but because they are the best person for the job. I care that the majority of people in Lebanon no longer suffer so that a select elite continue to profit. That is why I care that the people currently running the country are removed.

Finally, I very much agree with you on you last point. The Arab world in general is still too caught up in the cult of personality. In fact I would go one step further than you to say that we need to pledge allegiance to ideals that bolster society and get away from ideals that bolster each section. But you see that is the problem. The people you support are the very same that want to keep the old world system becasue it benefits them the most.

[Jeha]

Mo,

You're sidestepping the real issue.

I'm still paying mortgage for my house, but I did not start a war that cost the country Billions. Nor am I forcing others to go by my beliefs... And I did not vote for the one who did.

While I agree the current government is no piece of cake, I cannot agree that the Hezbo alternative is much of an improvement. It is important to note that March 14 can be improved on, since they do not claim divine inspiration. However, Nasrallah's band are "perfect" in the sence that they take their legitimacy from God.

While I have yet to discuss it with the Big Guy/Gal upstairs, but I am sure God would take issue with being Shanghaied in some mortal's little party, no matter the colour of his turban.

We're talking about different values.

[Mo]

PS JoseyWales, your history books are obviously missing a few points like Israeli weapons were already "down there" and in fact all over Lebanon before Hezbollah even existed. They may also have overlooked the "preemptive" strikes of '73 and '75. And while your looking at books, dig one up on geology and have a look at how long Israel can sustain its own population on its current water reservoirs and usage without any external water being pumped in -(if you cant be bothered its 5 to 8 years).

[Mo]

Jeha,
So whats the issue? My point was Nasrallah had $500 million in his pocket and didn't "borrow" any of it to pay for his house. How much has the current govt. "borrowed" for their mansions from the country?

Second, forcing others to go by my beliefs? Where and when did this happen? When have Hizbollah forced anyone to be a Muslim or a Shia? I must ask my Christian friends who live in Hart El Hraik (The heart of Hizbollah country) how along ago they were converted because I thought they were still Christian. Also, I dont know where this messianic Bush like divine perfect band comes in. They take their inspiration from God? OF course they do, I think you will find most religious people do. I do not believe I have ever heard Nasrallah claim to a special relationship - In fact he has accepted that he has been wrong on a number of occasions, so how can he do that if he is perfect?

Why do I think the opposition would be an improvement? Well I dont believe they intend to bring any kind of theocracy to Lebanon and I do beleive that they will rid the country of corruption (and by extension that cant allwo the Syrians back in because thats why they want in). It will bring true representation to the people - In fact, if the govt. is so sure it is the majority why does it not call an election and be done with it?

[Jeha]

Mo,

I do not disagree with the first point; they "borrowed" in our name, indebting us. But they were not alone, and Hezb got his cut; unless you discount any one who interacted with the government, especially the power company.

The second point you make is disingenuous. Hezb have done their share of coercion.

As to the third point, I partially agree; we need an improvement over the current sorry lot. I do not think that Hezb is a better solution; one look at their Iranian backers should be enough to convince anyone otherwise.

[Bad Vilbel]

Mo,

You are missing a very basic point here: A legitimate state versus a non-legimitate state.

The Lebanese people voted for the current majority. Who are you, or Nasrallah, for that matter to start wars without a mandate from the people?

I don't honestly care how long Israel can sustain its citizens without water. Nor do I care who converted or didn't convert who. If you can't understand the difference between the rule of law and constitution, and vigilantism (if you could call it that), then you have no business having a country. End of story.

The very PREMISE of a sovereign independent state is the rule of law. We, as Lebanese, need to understand that we have to play by the rules (even if we don't like them). See Ghassan's analogy to the 2000 US presidential election.

You can't declare wars whenever you please. You can't paralyze state institutions whenever you play. You can't coop parliament whenever you please. That's the basic premise at play here. We have to learn how to keep our own house in order, by certain rules of civility before we even start to worry about Israel's water claims, or US and European interests. All that is secondary.

What good does it do to have a country with no rules? This applies to BOTH sides. Let's say Hezbollah's referendum takes place, as they which. And let's say, for the sake of argument, that 90% of the voters vote for Nasrallah to be president (assume that was possible for the sake of this argument) and that they vote for whatever Hezb's agenda is.
How would you feel if the remaining 10% decided not to accept that outcome, and refused to recognize the results of the vote? What would you call that? What if this 10% decided to launch attacks on Syria. Or decide to blow up Haret Hreik, or whatever?

You can't have a functional country when EITHER side decides to sidestep the rules. The very premise is: We all play by the rules. If you lose, you lose. You come back next time (next elections) and you campaign and hope to win by getting the people's votes. You can't just say "We're not playing anymore" everytime you lose. The current government, president, parliament (yes, even the syrian-appointed president) are our official state institutions. We have to abide by them. We elect these people to make the decisions of war and peace, the decisions of what this country gets to do next. And we have to accept them until their term expires. That is how democracy works.

It constantly amazes how poor of a grasp of that concept the Lebanese people seem to have.

They want to play the game, as long as they get to win. But if they don't win, then they prevent the state institutions from working and co-opt them. And then you wonder why our economy sucks. Why everyone is emigrating. Why the country can't seem to rebuild itself. We're so busy boycotting every damn government and every damn parliament and every damned president that nothing ever gets done.

It cracks me up to hear Nasrallah demand a referendum. I'd LOVE NOTHING MORE Than a referendum, as long as you can PROMISE me that if you and Nasrallah LOSE, you will in fact abide. But i know better. If Nasrallah loses his referendum, he'll probably ignore its results and carry on with his policies anyway.

[Jeha]

BV,

I feel that one point needs to be clarified; in its modern form, democracy means pluralism as well as majority rule. In this, modern democracies are more like "representative republics", with checks and balances to "balance" out the effect of majorities, and preserve the rights of minorities for "internal" matters. In decentralized countries, there is democracy on the local level...

For all "external" matters, such as war, peace, and finance, however, majority rule needs to apply.

[ghassan karam]

MO,
Unfortunately you caught me at a very busy time. I wish that I could spare more time to continue the dialogue because it appears to me that we are not that far apart.
If you had read any of my previous posts and those of many others such as Josey, Jeha, Bad and AK you would have found that not a single person speaks very highly of the current crew. As you might also imagine none of these commentators/ blog owners has shied away from making fun and critiquing in very strong language the corrupt and bankrupt political leadership in Lebanon. Of course you need to get rid of feudalism, tribalism and traditional zuama but I dont want to throw away the baby with the dirty water. I do recognize that these "leaders" that we all object to do not exist in a vacuum. We brought them to power and we have pledged our allegiances to them. It is up to us to change them but that does not mean, as you suggest, that we need to change one exploiter with another. It is time that we decide once and for all if we value democratic and human rights principles. If we do then we have a duty to throw the rascals out but not by giving the dictator of Damascus or Ahmadinajjad the final say in resolving Lebanese affairs. The simple fact of the matter is that HA acts as if laws do not apply to it, as if it is a state within a stateaand ithey will shy from nothing in order to achieve their goals. That is totally unacceptable in any democracy or civilized society. The state must have monopoly on arms and must exercise its power over all the land. Any power that will hinder the fubctioing of the state must answer to the law of the land. Surely your complaints regarding inefficiencies and even corruption and sectarianism can be addressed if we all work towards a real and meaningful democracy. That you must admit is not compatible with the ideas of HA whose guiding light is a Holy Book and a Supreme leader in Iran. Actually I am not sure that I know where the Iranian Revolutionary Guards end and where HA begins.

Has it ever occured to you that countries could offer support for other countries that share their beliefs without expecting anything in return short of an adherence to ideas, mores and principles? Is it possible that the feared West is genuinely willing to offer support to Lebanon because Lebanon has the potential to become the first Arab speaking democracy in history? Do you think that support is always synonymous to hegemony and exploitation? I only hope that we can make distinctions between these very different motivations.

Mo, maybe we can continue this later on, I must go and attend to other things at the moment.

[fubar]

AK says, "It is clear, more than ever, that the battle for Lebanon is a battle against Hizbullah."

Clear more than ever for who? Nas verbally declares war on Lebanon's government so now it is okay to acknowledge it; like somehow that chicken really didn't leave the hen house a long time ago. There is a special place in hell for the wilfully blind. Well, at least, in hell, there will be no requirement for the Lebanese to get along together.

*******

Mo says, "If Hizbollah were the tyrannical religious zealots you believe they are, would the Dahyieh not be a mini-Iran, all Shia, full of veiled women?"

All in good time, Mo. You obviously know nothing of Iran. Even today, Iran is cracking down on the modesty dress code. Women's dress which can be corrected on the street are to be corrected and sent on their way. If it cannot be corrected on the street, they are to be taken to the police station until their family brings appropriately modest attire. If they refuse to wear it, they are to be fined. 28 years and still perfecting the subjugation and oppression of women. It is just a never ending chore. But have patience. You too can enjoy living in hell on earth, just give it time.

*******

Jeha,

Re: 10:54 AM

You owe me for my dry cleaning bill.

1. What caused the stains this morning?

a) spewed coffee - timely evasive action resulted in missing the keyboard but caused collateral damage to the dry clean only

b) excessive sweating - panic induced flashbacks will do it every time

c) all of the above.

2. Your post was:

a) deleteriously absent a warning label

b) mildly amusing by late afternoon

c) all of the above.

[Jeha]

Fubar,

This vacation of yours mellowed you... Still, I can relate. I experienced a similar mishap when I heard Nasrallah, but more from about of laughter; was I the only one who noticed his new turban "a la derniere mode de chez Pasdaran"? To me, it sounded like he was pulling a Ruhollah '79, but there was no insulting newspaper article for him to be angry about.

So please accept my apologies for the coffee mishap. I will gladly pay for the dry-cleaning bill. To facilitate payments, please forward us your bank account information, my Nigerian associates will gladly take care of that for you.

[ghassan karam]

Jeha/Fubar,
I had forgotten about Jeha's 10:54 am post. Please spread around the merriment. The best that I can do is that Rahbar must be Leader because I have seen it used to describe Khamenei but I cannot be certain of Faghat. I know it does not speak of sexual orientation:-) but could it mean Only. If I am right, and it is a guess then Jeha was saying:

The Only Hezb is Hezbollah and the Only leader is Nasrallah. How much off the mark am I?

[Jeha]

Ghassan,

Almost right on... Actually, some of it has Arabic roots, as "Faghat" comes from "Faqat" or "only". Interestingly, what many of those early activists meant by "Hezb Faghat Hezbollah" was "no party but the party of God", in a rejection of ALL political parties, secular or religious.

As in all revolutions, it got recuperated, and the rest is (pre)history... Ugh.

[Traffic]

Hezballah followers have become completely detached from the rest of Lebanon (by far more than any other of our colorful communities), and cannot help but step on someone else’s toes wherever they go. They have been for so long scoffing down rhetoric by many a Shiite leader heralding notions of deprivation and oppression of the Shiite community, that they fail to realize that Israel’s war was primarily against the PLO, and that eventually Israel, for many a reason, has withdrawn from Lebanon in 2000 (Syrian occupation has actually preceded and outlived that of Israel). They fail to realize that it is pure insanity to continue armed “resistance” just for the sake of liberating a small piece of land (by far smaller than the land lost to Syria’s outposts) or to liberate three or four prisoners.
HA’s weapons are today nothing more than tools of coercion and intimidation used to further a foreign agenda (Shebaa farms is not even close to the top of their list of priorities). And even though other communities have become at least as impoverished as HA followers are, none has (so far) accepted to go around the Lebanese state (as defective as it is) as HA has done.

[frankyb]

i just hope a referendum will be made online for all the dual citizens around the world,since alot of the majority have left lebanon.Im pretty sure then we will have a crushing defeat.Whats funny about Hezbo fanclub,the ones that arent all clones,the ones who do have some mental ability to argue good points like Mo,seem to argue all the little things and sidestep the biggest headline of all....SYRIA SYRIA SYRIA.Like the last 30 yrz of Syrian hegemony,no rather Syrian shit made no difference,and their leaders still pledge allegiance.Its not about government policy or the personalities of the leaders thats paralyzing lebanon,we agree with u on that point,its keeping Syria out.Try to understand that,as soon as thats concrete,i will be the first to protest against the government and its policies,and protest against the Zuama/feudal tradition.i know the Shia are the downtrodden,the miserable and the wretched,i understand,and i empathise,but why now? why is a problem now?its obviuos Nasrallah and company are taking the Shia hostage,feeding them propaganda.His latest speech was a laugh and a half and just reiterates my point.if its any consolation,the druze have been a major player in Lebanese history, from politics to revolts to makers and shakers of Lebanon,weve give alot to Lebanon yet we are marginalised to a limited position in Parliament and other institutions,yet were not taking to the streets and paralysing the country,we know the only freedom for all Lebanese lies in the pluralism of a democracy based on meritocracy,what Kamal joumblatt died for.So our path goes through LAW,aParliament etc as AK,Ghassan,Jeha et al have said above.Now get your heads out of your asses...the country needs you.

[JoseyWales]

Mo

--History, even recent history, started before the 1970's. Check 1969 and the Cairo accord and Arafat's men in the Arkoub. Isarel may have wanted the waters or whatever but had no excuse to come in.

--To repeat what others said: whatever the problem with M14 and the West, Nasrallah/Aoun ain't the answer. Just ask your democrat Iranian friends currently in jail or in exile.

[Mo]

Firstly apologies for the tardiness in reply; Im guessing from your timestamps that you are US based so there is a serious timezone issue (plus the small mattter of work).

Jeha,
If you are refering to the stealing of electricity; Yes that is wrong although in many cases there are extenuating circumstances. However, compared to making Lebanon the most indebted nation on the planet, everything else combined is small fry. You can stop people stealing from the state; you can prosecute them for money owed. But what do you do about a $44 billion debt?

Who is being disingenuous now? You have downgraded their actions from forced to coercion; And still I ask you, where is the evidence for this. If you have it I would like to know. I am not a blind follower and can see the defects in the party I support but this claim is a big one, so if you want me to accept it, show me the proof.

Im glad we agree a change is needed. The question is where is it going to come from. Right now we have 2 choices. The govt. and the opposition. We know it isn't going to come from the govt. because a system that takes power away from our feudal masters and lords is certainly not going to be introduced by those very same lords. Now i, like you, have no wish to see Lebanon turned into an Iranian style theocracy. I guess the difference between us is that I believe Hassan Nasrallah when he says he has no such plans for Lebanon; And dislike him as much as you may, you have to accept that he has, up until now been a man of his word. Even the Israelis accept this about him. Furthermore, unlike the rulers of Iran, Hizbollah are in an aliance that spans the secterian and ideological domains and none of their allies would accept such a conclusion in addition to the fact that much of their Shia support would be lost.

BV,
Im not missing the point at all my friend. Firstly, lets get this Western propaganda Hezbollah started the war crap out of the way shall we; Are we going to discuss propaganda or facts? Why do you parrot the Israeli/US line so easily? Did you miss the articles during the war in the San Fransico Chronichle and the New Yorker stating that the war had been planned? Did you miss Olmerts testimony that the war was pre-planned? And why is the capture of the 2 soldiers your starting point for this war? Why is the killing of Lebanese shepards, the daily breaking of Lebanese sovreignty by Israeli jets and the stealing of Lebanese waters not the starting point for the war?

You dont care how Israel gets water for its people? Even if that means taking Lebanese water? If you don't care that its Lebanese water and land they have to take then you are in no position to tell me I have no business having a country. If on the other hand you do care, perhaps you can tell me how, after Hezballah are disarmed, you will stop them. Do you think your allies in the West will stop them, the way they stopped them doing the same to the Palestinians, the way they stopped them doing what they wanted to Lebanon in 78, 82, 92, 96 and 06 ? If our state can't (or wont) defend our nation (because like it or not, the South is part of our nation) then the people have to. If the rest of the world sees Western, White hostages as a causus belli but sees dark skinned Arabs as sub-humans and does nothing for their release, why should we not have the dignity to get them back ourselves?

Yes the current govt. was voted for in elections. It also won those elections in alliance with Hizballah based on certain agreements and understandings. These agreements are now being broken. Yes, The very premise of a sovereign independent state is the rule of law. That does not however bar th population from revolting against a state for actions contrary to the good of the people. The US, the UK, France are 3 prime examples where a state with a "let them eat cake" attitude was overthrown by the people. And how is it that a govt. that came into power through the "Cedar revolution" suddenly thinks its wrong to be demonstrating againstthe govt. in Martyrs Square? And what exactly is the oppostion doing that is outside the rule of law? In a healthy democracy, demonstration of your unhappiness with the ruling elite is normal. If there wasn't enough popular support the demonstration would peter out.

If like you say, Nasrallah would ignore eresults he does not like in a referendum he has asked for, then what easier way would there be to discredit him? If the govt, is so sure of itself and its popular mandate, let it call his bluff. Im betting they don't.

Ghassan,
I agree, i think we are not that far apart, in that we both want a free, independent Lebanon; I think we just disagree in how to get there. I don't want Assad or Ahamdinijad setting policy in Lebanon nor do I want it to be Bush, Blair or Chirac. I am not condoning replacing one external nfluence with another. However, I am also pragmatic and in knowing that there are forces more powerful than us at work and quite frankly I cannot and will not work with people who rush weapons to someone who is trying to kill me because he has used up all his bombs trying to kill me.
But like I said to Jeha, we have 2 sides to choose from to effect the changes we want. Do you pick the side that is asking for those changes at the risk of what they MAY or MAY NOT want to turn the country into or do we pick the same old same old bunch of opportunists who have fattened themselves on the backs of the country and its people?

If Hizballah really were acting a state within a state (funny how US state dept. and Israeli phrases become so in vogue so quickly) and really would stop at nothing to get their demands why not use their obvious military advantage and launch a military coup or threaten one? Why would a man such as Nasrallah, who has made a point of never breaking his word, vow to never use his weapons against other Lebanese no matter what? Why weaken his position so early on? Is this an act of a lawless vigilante? i do not agree that Hezballah acts as if the law does not apply to it. Their actions in the South were part of an agreement with the govt. during the 2005 elections. Now I agree with you that a state should have a monopoly over arms (which of course is truly laughabale when said by US politicians where the right to bear arms is enshrined in the constitution). But in the case of Lebanon I ask you, what arms?!!! The state has nonw and is allowed none. Israel attacks us with impunity and the West bars us as a nation from obtaining the means of defending ourselves AND refuses to act to support us. They did nothing in 78, 82,92,96 and last year. So how is Lebanon to defend itself without a resistance? Let the US give the Army something more than a bunch of broken down humvees and take that argument away from me. Until then, I dont want to play sitting duck to a neighbour that has killed over 15,000 of my fellow civilians in the last 25 years.

Im not entirely sure why you think the Koran is not compatible with creating a non-setarian, uncorrupt nation. I can understand the concerns of having Iranians as spiritual leaders but to be honest I cant see where the influence ends and your fears begin. May I suggest you look at the teaching of Fadllalah, a Lebanese celric who has far more "spiritual" influence on Hizbollah and the Shia in Lebanon than any Iranian. Furthermore, for all its bad press, Iran is a very democratic coutry - Even the samll Jewish population has guaranteed seats in the Iranian parliament.

Of course I believe that support can come without strings. But I also know that the West will put the priorities of Israel above the priorities of any Arab every time. Therefore when I see the West trying to make my country weaker without addressing any of my fears, I get a little suspicious. Whats the use of freedom and democracy if my children have to live in shelters?

Fubar,
Very good, a state onto themselves in total control of the neigbourhood and yet they are biding their time to dictate dress coed to the masses... Your paranoia does you credit sir. As for Hell on Earth, thanks but I lived throught that last Summer while Mr Fatfat served the Israelis tea, and in 96 when I was picking bits of people and dismembered babies out of the remains of the UN shelters they thought they were safe in.

Traffic,
You say we fail to realize that Israel’s war was primarily against the PLO. Really? Who was throwing rice at the Israelis when they entered in 82? Who was celebrating the removal of the PLO in 82? If you don't know it was the Shia as it was the Shia who suffered under the PLO in the South. Hizbollah did not come into existence because of the invasion. It came into existence becasue of the occupation. Why did they stick around after the PLO left Beirut in 82? If they had left after removing the PLo, if they had not tried to keep the Litani, if they had not tried to impose a govt. that would sign a peace treaty they wanted, if they had not gotten the West to come in and kill even more civlians to protect that govt., there would be no Hizballah today.

frankyb,
Syria is only the biggest headline from your point of view. I dont want Syria back but then i dont agree with you that Syria has any important influence on the opposition (Nabih Berri not withstanding). It is a problem now becasue the govt.'s western backers have forced it to renege on agreements made with Hizballah in 2005. The Druze's biggest problem today is that Kamal Joumblatt seemed to have given his son none of his dignity and self respect. While Walid Bek, opportunist extraordinaire makes aliances with Geagea and the US, the 2 very groups that caused the most deaths among the Druze community, he will be too busy looking out for his own people.
Thanks for recognising that I have some mental ability though.

[samir]

Guys, cant we just have a man2oushe and juice and forget about the rest?

[Mo]

joseywales,
You say History, even recent history, started before the 1970's. You are absolutely right and I will come back to that. But first let me address "Israel may have wanted the waters or whatever but had no excuse to come in". Man, you really think highly of our southern neighbours. Israel doesnt invade in response to excuses my friend. It plans the invasion then finds the excuse. Proof? Our new airport was destroyed in 69. Why? Becasue an Arab killed an Israeli in Athens! In 78 they invaded. Why? Because the Palestinians attacked a bus. In Tel Aviv! In 82 they invaded.Why? Becasue of the ATTEMPTED assasination of the Israeli ambassador. in London! In 96, "operation Grapes of Wrath" because the resistance killed some Israeli soldiers. In Lebanon! And Olmert has happily admitted to planning this war before finding the excuse to execute it. So please, lets give up all this talk of giving them excuses. We don't need to. They are quite capable of inventing their own.

Now for history.
In 1954 Ben Gurion developed plans to "Christianize" Lebanon, i.e., to invent and create from scratch the inter-Lebanese conflict, through a detailed blueprint for the partition and subordination of the country, more than fifteen years before the Palestinian presence became a political factor.
As early as 1918, Zionist leaders meeting in Europe with a committee of the British Palestinian Mandate discussed the northern border of Palestine as extending into southern Lebanon and at the Paris peace conference the next year proposed boundaries up to Lebanon's Litani River, emphasizing the "vital importance of controlling all water resources up to their sources."
In 1954, meeting with Eisenhower's envoy Eric Johnson on water matters, Israel threatened to use force against Lebanon to prevent utilization of the Litani water to develop South Lebanon.
In May 1955 Moshe Sharett, in his dairy, described Israel's plans to destabilize Lebanon's government. Sharett quotes Moshe Dayan, Ben Gurion's defense minister at a secret cabinet meeting on May 16th: "According to him [Dayan] the only thing necessary is to find an officer, even just a major. We should either win his heart or buy time with money, to make him agree to declare himself the savior of the Marionite population. Then the Israel army will enter Lebanon, will occupy the necessary territory, and will create a Christian regime which will ally itself with Israel. The territory from the Litani southward will be totally annexed to Israel and everything will be alright."

On May 28th Sharett notes: "The Chief of Staff supports a plan to hire a [Lebanese] officer who will agree to serve as a puppet so that the Israeli army may appear as responding to his appeal "to liberate Lebanon from its Muslim oppressors."

"Moshe Dayan, then Israel's Chief of Staff, explained why Israel needed to reject any border security arrangement of Arab states, or by the United Nations, as well as by the formal security guarantees suggested by the United States. Such guarantees, he predicted, might "tie Israel's hands... As Dayan admitted...much anxiety had to be generated... The lives of Jewish victims also had to be sacrificed to create provocations justifying subsequent reprisals, especially in those periods in which the Arab governments succeeded in controlling the reactions of the harassed and enraged Arab border populations. A hammering daily propaganda, controlled by the censors was directed to feed the Israeli population with images of the monstrosity of the enemy."

For me personally, this goal to take the Litani and the plot to do so, via controlling the govt. in Beirut has not changed, only the players.

[Jeha]

Mo,

True. But you forget a few key factors;

1- That great Arab leaders, such as Emir Faycal bin Hussein, had signed an agreement ceding Southern Lebanon and the Golan. Southern Lebanon was kept within Lebanon in spite of objections from people from without (Weizman, for water reasons), and within (Emile Edde, for sectarian reasons), because the French insistence to maintain the Tyre-Damascus road under their control.

2- Lebanese experts around Patriach Hoayek used that to make sure the springs of the Litani and the Assi were within Lebanese borders, in addition to small valley in the Beqaa that was populated by Shiites.

3- Lebanon, during the 1949 signing of the armistice, made sure to keep the border demarcated to avoid any other claims. It is interesting to note that, while Syria did not accept Lebanon's border, Israel agreed to demarcate part of that border...

4- Crucially, in July, Hezbo crossed the DEMARCATED portion of the border; as a member of government, they had effectively negated the armistice and the border demarcation. Good for us 1701 re-established the demarcation, but it is contingent on Hezbo's disarmament.

As you see, the COMPLETE facts are not all Black and White. Facts are stubborn things.

[BadVilbel]

Mo,

When I say "I don't care where Israel gets its water" what i mean is that we have to get our house in order FIRST, and then worry about external threats.

You think having a weak country, torn apart by civil war and no rule of law is going to help fend off Israeli claims on the Litani (assuming there are such claims)? I'd much rather have a strong state, with a capable army to do this. And those things are not possible as long as we continue to circumvent to rule of law and make a mockery of our constitution.

Secondly, I find it amusing how you conveniently take on this patriotic stance about defending our country from Israel. But you don't seem to have that much of a problem with Syria trampling all over our sovereignty. If you're a true patriot, you'd be speaking out against BOTH. Not to mention your defending of an organization (Hezbollah) that takes its orders from Iran.
And before you go ahead and accuse me of parroting the Israeli propaganda about this, take a moment and check yourself. Do you REALLY believe Hezbollah is not an Iranian/Syrian tool? Cause if you really believe that, there is nothing i can say that will convince you otherwise. But something tells me that if you're halfway as smart as you seem, you KNOW the answer to that question deep in your heart, even if you won't admit it.

[Traffic]

Mo,

As you said Israel invaded Lebanon to remove the PLO. The natural result should have been to sign a peace agreement guaranteeing Israeli withdrawal while the Lebanese state took responsibility to reign in all militias endangering the Israeli border (which is anyways its natural responsibility). But the reasons “justifying” the invasion (the same reason that made the Shiaa community overjoyed by the sight of the Israeli tanks) persisted (thanks to Syria’s interventions) which forced Israel to hold a 20 km buffer zone inside the Lebanese territories. Simply the issue was one of security not occupation. Accordingly, this explanation should help you understand why Israel never pursued any plans to build settlements in Lebanon.

[Jeha]

Traffic,

The facts do not bear this out. Peace was not in the cards back then; even before Israel was "forced to hold a 20 km buffer zone inside the Lebanese territories", and within 6 month of the invasion, Israeli forces went from having flowers thrown at them to being attacked by suicide bombers. The first were many Christian women, BTW...

When one factors in the fact that most of SLA's forces were Shiites, one should realize that the Israelis must have been doing something really wrong to generate such passion.

[ghassan karam]

Mo,
Just four quick observations:
(1) If you really truly believe that Iran is a democracy then there is not much that we can discuss.
(2) Again if you do not find it difficult to see the contradictions that are implied between a civil rule of law and Sharia then we have completely different visions of what principles society should be built upon.

(3) If you want to justify the existence of a non governmental militia and compare that to the right to bear arms again our views of reality are 180 degrees opposite of each other.

(4) if we can establish that we share the same goal but we differ on the means then we will not be in this mess. I am afraid that we do not only differ on the means, which is what democracy is all about, but we do not agree even on the ultimate goal that sets the outer constraints of what is essential for a society to thrive and what is not.

BTW, a dialogue such as this one can be helpful and instructive if it is carried in a more structured way and if the participants will agree to be candid and objective. Maybe we should consider setting up a special temporary blog to address the numerous issues that have been mentioned so far by various people. It does not take more than a few minutes to set up such a blogwhere different commentators will be asked to speak to a posted each each day or every few days. If anybody feels that this is helpful then please let me know. If this is to proceed then I can only guess that many of the current commentators will participate but it is obvious that for the sake of diversity of opinion that it would be helpful if you could prevail on a few of your friends and acquaintances to participate.

[Traffic]

Jeha,

I understand that the use of excessive brutality during the invasion (which indiscriminately hit both civilian and armed forces) when dealing with the Palestinian presence had to have caused a lot of animosity. Then came a Syrian funded and encouraged resistance by many of the leftist militias as well as others back then to block a peace process that was being worked on, later dubbed the May 17 agreement. Anyways as I said before, unlike the Golan Heights and a large part of the West Bank, Israel never sought the creation of any long lasting presence in Lebanon. Finally, the fact that Shiites formed the backbone of the SLA is a clear indication that there was disagreement as to the identity of the foe and friend. Anyways, no need to elaborate here because this is all in the past.

For the future, Israel’s war is with HA in which the Lebanese state is nothing more than a mere spectator, which is exactly the danger HA poses to Lebanon.

[Roman Kalik]

Mo,
History is one thing, plots woven together from the flotsam and jetsam of the minds of self-proclaimed researchers quite another. Israel accepted your border, so stop looking for decades of plots.
And we can handle our own water supply, thank you. Had you dug further you would have found that we conserve water, process sewage and saltwater, and even import water.
And funny, the way you state last-straws as reasons without mentioning the bloody mess that came before them.

Let's take Hezb's previous kidnappings, attempted kidnappings, border clashes... Good enough as context? Important thing, context, often missed. Oh, as for Olmert's Great Nefarious Plan, we call that preparing for contingencies. Drawer-plans. Every country has them, or any sensible country leastways.
If it was so nefarious, then I would ask what made Olmert so certain that Hezb would try and capture sold- oh, wait, it's that bloody context again.

[Roman Kalik]

Let's take Hezb's previous kidnappings, attempted kidnappings, border clashes... Good enough as context? Important thing, context, often missed. Oh, as for Olmert's Great Nefarious Plan, we call that preparing for contingencies. Drawer-plans. Every country has them, or any sensible country leastways.
If it was so nefarious, then I would ask what made Olmert so certain that Hezb would try and capture sold- oh, wait, it's that bloody context again.

[Roman Kalik]

Damn. Sorry for the double-posting, but one-window surfing via the mobile with a web-cache that updates erratically... I hate it at times.
Jeha, to answer in general more than the particular, we entered a country which we simply did not understand, and got mired in a political game whose rules no one explained to us. As for water, I think this one was to do with clearing the PLO from the water sources before they realized what havoc a little construction work can do rather than taking them over.

[Mo]

Jeha,

Sorry, Im not sure I really understand the points your are making in 1,2 and 3. But in answer:

1- As far as i am aware, Faisal was the only one to cede the territory and I hope you are being sarcastic when you refer to him as great. Why any Saudi born son of a family that started the family tradition of betraying the Arab people should decide who controls my land is beyond me. Furthermore, the agreement was never implemented because Lebanons borders were redrawn by Sykes-Picot.

2- I bow to your knowledge on this and I congratulate them for doing so.

3- Syria has always wanted Lebanon on that we all agree. The Israelis are just more intelligent in that they will sign anything knowing they will break it later.

4- Seriously, can we get over this, Hizbollah broke the armistice crap once and for all. Please read the UNIFIL reports on the period 2000-2006 to see how many times Israel effectively negated the armistice and the border demarcation. Why does history start for you guys in July 2006. Amongst one another can we stop with the propaganda and stick to the facts please.

BV,
You say we have to get our house in order FIRST, and then worry about external threats. But lets be honest here, thats not what you mean is it? You mean lets deal with the external threats you dont like so the external threats you do like stop attacking you, right? What I cant seem to grasp is why you think the Western world will suddenly come to Lebanons aid after Hizballah are removed.

I don't think we are a weak country at all. And thats proabbly why we have come in for so much crap. We, as a people, call us Lebanese, call us Canaanites, have given invaders as good as they gave us since Alexander the Great had to build a land bridge to take Sur. And no matter how hard anyone tries, theyre will not be a civil war, a. because Hizbollah wont fight back and b. The two sides span too many secterian and regional domains to make it a viable option. As for no rule of law, I presume you are reffering to Hizbollah, I ask you again, what are they doing thats illegal? And, if you have lived in Lebanon, you will know that the ruling elite have a very different set of laws than the rest of us in the country. It is them that have made the biggest mockery of the rule of law. For Israeli claims on the Litani please read my post to joseywales.

I too would much rather have a strong state, with a capable army to do this. But with all due respect no rule of law or respect for the constitution will get you this, simply because a strong and capable army will be able to fight the Israelis and AIPAC will not allow it. Its that simple. When the army is allowed anti-aircraft missilies, an air force and weaponry that doesnt date to the Korean war, I will stand with you and demand that Hizballah be disarmed.

Secondly, I if you believe that I don't have that much of a problem with Syria trampling all over our sovereignty please my responses to others. i do speak out against BOTH. However, while Syria is your prime concern, Israeli is mine for two reasons. 1. Syria doesn not regularly kill Lebanese women and Children in their thousands and 2. Syria is one regime change away from being a completely different entity as it is the dictatorship that is against me, not the people. In Israel it is the people that want me dead no matter who is in charge.

As for my defending of an organization (Hezbollah) that takes its orders from Iran, I have a simple request, prove it. As long as what Hizbollah is doing is in the interest of its people I will support it. The moment it does something that is not I will cease to support it.

Now your turn. Why does the government of the Lebanese people, that cares for the Lebanese people expend so much time chasing after the UN to get a tribunal over the murder of one man and not spend any time chasing the UN to get restitution from Israel over its war crimes? While we need to know who killed Hariri, I would also like to see this govt. stepping up to the plate for the other 4 million of us.

Do you I believe Hezbollah is not an Iranian/Syrian tool? Lol, you cannot set the question and answer, thats not how debate works. I cannot prove a negative. You are making an accusation, it is up to you to prove it.
Do you really believe that this got. hasn't become an American tool?

Traffic,

Woah there, I take it you are Israeli? Are you seriously justifying the murder of over 10,000 civilians as an act of peace? That the callous and brutal pounding of Beirut should "naturally" result in a peace treaty? That the installation of a govt. of its own choosing by Israel should have been greeted with glee by the Lebanese? That I had to watch my grandmother eat bread covered in mould because the Israelis had set up one of those blockades they so love be a reason to shake an Israeli hand in 82? And your history has a few holes in it.

The reasons that justified the invasion persisted which forced Israel to hold a 20 km buffer zone inside the Lebanese territories.? Are you serious? The Israelis did not move into their buffer zone until 1985. Thats 3 years! Are you saying a country should happily accept an invader for 3 years without resistance? Sorry but if 3 years isn't enough for you, at what point would you consider an occupation starts exactly?
Israel never pursued any plans to build settlements in Lebanon becasue the resistance never made it safe enough for their soldiers let alone their civilians. But please read my response to joseywales. The invasion of Lebanon, the installation of a friendly Christian leader who would then cede control of the Litani to them has been in the pipelines for decades.
And for the future, if Israel continues its war against Hizbollah and the Lebanese state continues to be a mere spectator, then it has no business being the state.

ghassan,
1. I didnt say it was a democracy, I said it was democratic. While the "Spiritual Council" holds all the strings, there is a parliament and it is elected.

2. How did we get to Sharia law being implemeted in Lebanon for gods sake? You may not like Hizbollah but you have at least credit them with some intelligence. They have clearly stated that they will not use their weapons against the Lebanese and to impose Sharia they would have to - Where is the logic in your argument?

3. Ok I was being slightly flippant, but there is hypocrisy involved when you take the amount of guns in the hands of the American people into account when saying arms should be a monopoly of the state. There is a general disingenuity involved when the US wants to remove the sole blocker of Israeli ambitions in Lebanon and yet block the sale of any kind of defensive measures the state whishes to purchase or accept in donation.

4.I diasgree that we do not share the same ultimate goal. I just think that you are misguided in your beliefs of what our side of the divide wants as the ultimate goal.

[Umm Kais]

Mo: For accuracy’s sake, I’m leaving in all your fun spelling mistakes.

“I don't want Assad or Ahamdinijad setting policy in Lebanon nor do I want it to be Bush, Blair or Chirac.”

Please do tell me how free of Syrian influence top army officials, and others are. It’s always heartwarming to know that Syria also still gets passenger manifests for every flight into Beirut airport. When Bush, Blair and Chirac start receiving passenger manifests of all flights into Beirut, then let’s talk. By the way, where is the Syrian embassy in Beirut? Or a Lebanese embassy in Damascus? I would really love to see these symbols of real diplomatic relations but wait, OH, there aren’t ANY because Syria doesn’t believe Lebanon is independent.

“Furthermore, for all its bad press, Iran is a very democratic coutry - Even the samll Jewish population has guaranteed seats in the Iranian parliament.”

Yes, they’re extremely democratic there—and particularly because they have Jewish representation. Especially when international news sites are blocked, bloggers are tortured and jailed, female rape victims are imprisoned, women going unveiled are arrested and fined, homosexuals are hanged (even if they’re only 15 years old), and dissenting opinions from professors or students are quickly silenced with imprisonment. Oh oh oh—and the fact that the Shura council has to approve every candidate in the supposed “democratic” elections and somehow they manage to prevent every opposition candidate from running. Oh and let’s not forget the 5 women arrested on April 1 for voicing their opinions about women’s rights in Iran and gathering signatures (Oh what a crime!)—but hey, maybe I am just making all of this up because I am indiscriminately criticizing Iran. I mean, Iran should be everyone’s best friend. Forgive me for “choosing” Bush, Blair and Chirac as you list them.

And finally, was Lebanon not on a slight economic high? You say Nasrallah always keeps his word—did he or did he not say that he wouldn’t start anything during the summers (i.e. tourist season)? You know damn well he did, so my friend, he has broken his word. I find it disgusting that my 8 month old son is automatically represented by this moron or Berri—I couldn’t imagine two worse men to “represent” my son’s sect. THIS is more of a threat to Lebanon than Israel or the US will ever be.

Btw--Americans may have the right to bear arms but Congress has to approve war and there is no milita on the border of Mexico, at least not that I know of. Did I miss something or did the Lebanese cabinet approve of Nasrallah's war? Your comparison makes absolutely no sense.