Moral equivalence shit

13 people from two different families died under the rubble of their houses in the village of Aitaroun. At least a dozen Lebanese soldiers who were never given the chance to defend their country died under the rubble of their barracks. (Source: Aljazeera TV) Civilian death toll so far: 217.

In Israel, 12 civilians died so far in retaliatory attacks by Hizbullah.

Is it the same? Not according to John Bolton:

US Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton said there was no moral equivalence between the civilian casualties from the Israeli raids in Lebanon and those killed in Israel from "malicious terrorist acts".

"It's simply not the same thing to say that it's the same act to deliberately target innocent civilians, to desire their deaths, to fire rockets and use explosive devices or kidnapping versus the sad and highly unfortunate consequences of self-defense," Bolton said.

It's all "shit", if you ask Bush.

“The irony is, what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit, and it's over," Bush told Blair over bread and butter.

Bush's idea is for criminals to get a dictator to get a bunch of fanatics to “stop doing this shit.”  A ceasefire sucks.

Bush also seemed to complain about U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan wanting an immediate ceasefire to stop the violence between Israel and Hizbollah.

"I don't like the sequence of it," Bush said. "His attitude is basically ceasefire and everything else happens."

Before the shit talk, Tony Blair begged Bush to agree to deploy international forces "that can stop bombardment coming into Israel." The idea got tossed around between world leaders, and Israel has already rejected it.

Still, John R. Bolton, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, raised skeptical questions in New York. Israeli officials expressed opposition and the idea seemed unlikely to be accepted by Hezbollah, which operates in southern Lebanon with little interference from the Lebanese government.

.. Supporters said any new force would have to be more robust than UNIFIL. Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi suggested it would require at least 10,000 troops and a broad mandate. Chirac said it should be charged with enforcing a 2004 Security Council resolution ordering Hezbollah to disarm.

It seems there no is no escaping this shit, unless you're a foreigner living in Lebanon.

Finally, got milk for UNIFIL? Israel destroyed the Liban Lait factory in the Bekaa valley today (Aljazeera TV, LBC). Liban Lait supplied UNIFIL and the rest of the country with milk and dairy products. UNIFIL used to get their milk from an Israeli company until Liban Lait won the contract. Here's what got destroyed. It's not shit, it's dairy.

Liban Lait represents the largest investment ever made in Lebanon in the field of farming and dairy processing. The project spreads over an area of 504,000 sqm sq in the heart of the Bekaa valley, at Hosh el Sneid.. It includes a farm, a fully auto mated processing plant and a wide distribution network. It is one of the most modern facilities in its field. The whole operation focuses on quality standards, regularity, and continuity.

Good morning Lebanon. Good night America.

Comments

[The Perpetual Refugee]

Factories are the latest targets being targetted by the Israeli Terrorist Regime.

I have colleagues worried that their factories are next. We already know of one acquintance who's factory was destroyed. He produced bags. (yes, of the shopping variety). He is not a Hezbullah supporter. He voted for the March 14 block. In the Bekaa.

Yes, they lecture us about morality. When they're morally corrupt.

[The Perpetual Refugee]

Factories are the latest targets being targetted by the Israeli Terrorist Regime.

I have colleagues worried that their factories are next. We already know of one acquintance who's factory was destroyed. He produced bags. (yes, of the shopping variety). He is not a Hezbullah supporter. He voted for the March 14 block. In the Bekaa.

Yes, they lecture us about morality. When they're morally corrupt.

[Miss Lebanon]

Supposedly they also bombed a chewing gum factory. God knows Nasrallah and his cronies are launching rockets with chewing gum. Unless Lebanese chewing gum really pissed off the psycho, er, I mean "we don't hit civilians" Israeli military.

Concerning the international force, it might be hard to find countries who're willing to send interposition forces in areas under HA control. I mean, after what they did in 1983 (yes I know, there's no proofs).

Even if this force can come, what will they do? Will they actually use military forces against any party who tries to escalate? If they don't, we might as well keep the UNIFIL. If they do, they better have good AA missiles and not let any HA truck near their compounds.

International forces are always impotent.

[anonymous]

If Israel wanted to kill Lebanese civilians, you'd all be dead. The reason the civilian death toll is so high is because Hezbollah places launchers and weapons caches in or near civilian edifices, and uses civilian infrastructure for their military activities. So you claim to be civilians, and your military claims to be against Hezbollah, while there are Iranian Missiles out in the open in Beirut (we saw what happened when Israel bombed close enough to it for it to misfire and Hezbollah to declare victory after downing and Israeli aircraft). The Lebanese army allows Hezbollah to use its installations, including the radar systems which Israel took out. And you talk about how defenseless the civilians and military are. You're right, they are defenseless. But it's stupid to be anywhere near anyone pointing a 9mm at a tank. Defenseless yes. Innocent? Hard for me to say anyone in a state that sponsors or harbours terrorits is innocent. Stupid? Probably, for being near Hezbollah and being in a state that harbours terrorists.

"Israel destroyed the Liban Lait factory in the Bekaa valley today (Aljazeera TV, LBC). "

Milk feeds Bekaa's children. Bekaa's children become HA fighters.

Bud ideological consistency is very important for me.

Using the above logic, one would be dishonest to claim that Hamas is not targetting military objectives when it blows children.

I am obviously not saying that Hamas is right. I am saying that Israel is wrong.

[Erick]

Is there a global consensus that collective punishment is a bad thing?

"Is there a global consensus that collective punishment is a bad thing?"

It depends if you include North Korea or not.

Of course, if North Korea is your moral reference, you might have to check your values.

[Abu Kais]

Erick, September 11 ring a bell?

Erick,

Maybe Iraqi men can start raping American service women as collective punishment for the rape and murder of an Iraqi woman and her family by US soldiers. Gee, collective punishment is a great idea.

[Globular Cluster]

Just in: Sunni gunmen in Iraq kill 50 Shiites.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203913,00.html

It's just terrible how Arabs deliberately massacre other Arabs. I think we need to call in the UN to stop Muslims from commiting genocide against Muslims. I know the Shia around the world must be very upset about deliberate massacres like this, because anything the Jews do pales in comparison. It heartens me that courageous Shia everywhere are speaking out against the oppressive Muslim bullies that make the Israelis look like toddlers in Disney World.

[just me]

"At least a dozen Lebanese soldiers who were never given the chance to defend their country died under the rubble of their barracks."

I always thought it was OK to target military installations and that the civilians were the off limit targets. Which is it?

"In Israel, 12 civilians died so far in retaliatory attacks by Hizbullah."

Damn those Israelis for not dying more quickly?

[VP]

"always thought it was OK to target military installations and that the civilians were the off limit targets. Which is it?"

Israel is at war with the Lebanese army? It must be the first time in the world's history when a army attacks another one while still wanting it on its borders.

If things in Lebanon sound complicated it's because they are. Therefore spare me simplistic thoughts.

[R]

Globular Cluster,
I am starting to wonder if the cluster your refer to is not in that thick skull of yours. As your name indicates you seem to be incredibly dense.
(Quoting wikipedia: "Globular clusters ... (have very) high density towards their core)

My good man, if a massacre in one one part of the world is committed, it does not justify another in another part. So yes, Sunnis killing Shias is bad and Shias killing Sunnis is also bad. More generally, people killing each other is bad. Its a simple equation isn't it ? A consequence of that equation is that Israelis killing lebanese civilians is bad and HA members killing israeli civilians is bad.
That aside, by your claim, HA is a terrorist organization and I assume you consider Israel a civilized democratic state. As such, it has the right to attack two trucks in the Christian city of Byblos north of Beirut, where there are no HA members or any of your hated Shia for that matter. It also justifies destroying a milk factory and gas tanks in the airport and elsewhere. Oooh those crazy terrorists hiding in fuel tanks must be shitting bricks. Not to mention the kids who have died or have been injured.
Have some decency man, grow yourself some empathy, or as miss lebanon puts it, go troll somewhere else.

[thoughts]

Israel and Lebanon are enemy countries. Lebanon was never prepared to discuss a peace treaty with Israel (unlike Jordan and Egypt). Israel's aggression should not come as too much of a surprise to anyone. That's what enemies do, they attack each other.

The thing that strikes me is that Hizbullah (the great protector of Lebanon) is doing nothing to stop this distruction. All they have to do is return the two captured soldiers and it all ends. Naseralla's ego is bigger than his love for Lebanon. I think he is a traitor to his country.

And a last comment about the UN forces: International peace keeping forces have been deployed to many areas in the world over the past 50 years. Give me one example where they were even remotely effective. Lebanon ? Kosovo ? Africa ? South east asia ? These toy soldiers from Holland or India have no say against the trained armies of Israel or Hizbullah. The only solution is a peace treaty between Lebanon and Israel (like the Egypt/Jordan precedent).

[MaDr]

I guess you didn't get the memo. Feigning, hapless victims, doesn't work as well as it use to. People and their governments make decisions. You have free will. Choices have consequences, for good or ill.

You decided to allow a viper to grow in your midst. You whine about how no one cares about you. How much did you care about others around the world, as you permitted a vile terrorists, free run in your country? What good's a military if you won't deploy it?

Your "heroic" PM couldn't even side with Egypt, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, and the Gulf States in blaming HA. No, he took Syria's (HA & Iran's) side. No profile in courage here.

Get a clue - review history. Freedom and democracy have never been won by the faint of heart (or victims for that matter).
Choose a side. Pick the wrong one and there's no one to blame but yourself.

[M. Simon]

It is not wise to piss off the Israelis.

Of course wisdom in miltary matters has not been an Arab strong point for 200 some years.

If you do not wish to bear the pain of wars don't start them. So far the Israelis seem to be bearing the pain much better than those on the other side. At least that is what I see when I compare Israeli blogs to the Lebanese.

The Israelis are finishing the Lebanese Civil War. You should thank them. Unless you are a Hizbollah supporter. If I was a Hizb supporter I'd probably be whining too. It is so much easier than fighting. And losing.

[IA]

Israeli actions are all out war crimes, no other way to put it.

[IA]

The Israeli army has committed wide ranging acts of aggression against Lebanese civilians and civil infra-structure, such as the murder of dozens of Lebanese, including entire families, without being in any proximity to legitimate military targets (no possibility of qualifying as a collateral), and in flagrant violation of the laws of war and particularly the Geneva Conventions of August 12, 1949, and the Hague Regulations of 1907, at least in the following ways:

1. Article 3 of the Geneva Convention for the Protection of Civilians outlawed violence against the persons and lives of all those who do not actively participate in military operations. It prohibits killing, mutilating, torturing or otherwise treating them with cruelty.

2. Article 49 of the same convention requires the prosecution and trial of those military personnel that commit or order the commitment of such crimes.

3. The matter of the two Israeli prisoners of war taken by Hizbullah, in the aftermath of a military battle in which they were in uniform, armed and on a military mission in an armored vehicle, is regulated by the Third Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War. Article 21 of this convention authorizes their internment subject to certain conditions. Their rights as prisoners of war are provided in the said convention. The Israeli Government may seek to insure those rights through the peaceful means authorized by the said convention.

4. The military organization of Hizbullah, in relation to the war with Israel, is an organized resistance movement recognized under the Hague Regulations of 1907, which were ratified by Lebanon on June 12, 1962. Article 1 of the Regulations requires the following conditions for the members of a resistance organization:

a. To follow the command of a commander responsible for his subordinates.
b. To carry or wear a distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, but without the necessity of wearing a uniform.
c. Carrying arms openly when engaged in an operation, but without giving up the element of surprise.
d. Conducting operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

[R]

MaDr, GLob, M. Simon, Anonymous (from this thread), Omri, and countless others:

Is there someone sending you guys our way? Also, it would be great if you could point me in the direction of some Israeli blogs as I would really like to see if what we are getting here is a balanced opinion.

[Globular Cluster]

R,

My empathy is far greater than than your empathy for Israelis killed daily by Hezbollah rockets, the terrorist group that runs your country. I have numerous relatives in northern Israel, a good chuck of whom are now in bomb shelters. Yet I don't cry for sympathy, because I expect nothing less from the scumbags who run your country, nor do I expect the rest of the world to solve our problems or rely on them to stop it, nor is your sympathy really, at the end of the day, meaningful or useful to me.

Nobody told you to be human shields for Hizballah. I wish bombs were completely accurate and that Hizballah had homing devices on them. You've utterly failed to offer a satisfactory explanation for why the Lebanese army fired on the IAF, or why you are so sure that these trucks were not legitimate targets. Since you don't support Hizballah, you obviously think that freedom from the tyranny of that group will come at no cost to you or any other Lebanese, either through destruction of infrastructure or collatoral damage. Wrong. Also, I'm curious how the majority of of citizens of towns targeted in Lebanon have no idea where rocket installations are or never saw them installed. Amazing. All these innocent people destroyed next to rocket launchers. I guess it never occurred to them to evacuate or drop a dime.

You do mischaracterize my point, which is, simply, the hypocrisy of Shiites everywhere for falling back on the soothing lie of blaming Jews in preference to decrying the biggest genocidal maniacs the world has now -- Islamists. That's right. I'm very proud of Muslim blogs everywhere for denouncing Darfur, Saddam's gassing of the Kurds, the fact that the Kurds never had a state, or the Baathist extermination of the city of Hama, Nasser's invasion of Yemen, Khomeini's deployment of children to the front lines of the Iran-Iraq war, the clitorectomies performed all over northern Africa, wonderful stuff. The only thing I ever hear from Lebanese is nasty anti-Israel bile about Sabra and Shatila, both perpetrated by Lebanese Shiites and Christians, and not Israelis.

We aren't talking moral equivalence here. We aren't talking two wrongs stuff. We're talking pebbles and mountains. You decry the pebbles and ignore the mountains. You act, disingenouosly, as if bombing a milk truck merits as much attention as 50 friggin' shiites deliberately and murderously gunned down by hand, in Iraq. Your brothers.

I just don't see what good it does to give you a shoulder to cry on, or to cry on someone elses shoulder. It solves nothing and only does harm.

[Regards from Jerusalem, Israel]

Sure there's another way to put it.

Israel is legally responding to an act of war initiated by a Lebanese terrorist group which has elected representatives in the Lebanese government.

When you start a war, you'll get one in return. Your precious Nasrallah has made, to use Bush's terminology, shit out of your rebuilt country, which had so much potential, if only it could get away from the age old temptation of trying to destroy Israel.

Stupid Lebanese. And they remain stupid. All that's needed to end the war is to return our soldiers and have your own Lebanese Army (though I doubt they are up to the task) keep the peace on the southern border.

You are your own worst enemy. Actually, I take that back. Syria and Iran are your worst enemies. They couldn't care less to serve up Lebanon as canon fodder, as long as it's "for the cause." If Lebanon would leave Israel alone, Israel would leave Lebanon alone. Can you say the same for Syria and Iraq? I thought not.

Try rallying 1 million or so people in Beirut against Hizb'Allah and see what natural support you'll get from the civilized world. Until then, if you tolerate and elect savages to run your country into the ground, don't blame everyone else.

[Globular Cluster]

R,

We work for the Mossad, in a top-secret Israeli propaganda campaign to alter your pineal gland to produce homing vibrations.

Remember, the Zionists are the sons of monkeys and pigs but we control the world, including such things as your mind through secret messages encoded in these posts.

I hope this explains why all this painful truth is being posted on your blog and ruining the echo chamber you crave. To answer your question, there are literally thousands and thousands of Israeli blogs. We invented such technologies as ICQ, remember? Anyway, I would encourage you to vent on Israeli blogs to help spread your side of the story there. You might find it interesting.

anonymous @ 12:11 AM,
Thank you for your compassion, I owe you my life.
Is there anything I can do to repay your generosity and superior sense of humanity?
What I admire the most about this war is how Israel and Israelis are winning the hearts and minds of the Lebanese public. I feel so exasperated that I'm ready to take up arms and join the IDF in ridding the world of HA and it's "infrastructure". Just point out the lebanese babies so we can join in the fight.
Those sneaky lebanese babies, they're so hard to hit, you have to aim real hard to make sure they die. Of course we can all claim it's collateral damage. After all, we'd be fighting for glorious israel then, and israel is always right.
Honestly anonymous, you made me lose any sympathy I had for the Israeli civilian deaths. May you and HA beat each other to hell.

[M. Simon]

Evidently the Arabs are wising up.

====================================

Hizbollah having trouble finding friends.

Rarely have I seen such an uprising, indeed an intifada, against those little turbaned, bearded men across the Muslim landscape as the one that took place last week. The leader of Hezbollah, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, received a resounding "no" to pulling 350 million Arabs into a war with Israel on his clerical coattails.

The collective "nyet" was spoken by presidents, emirs, and kings at the highest level of government in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Bahrain, Qatar, Jordan, Morocco, and at the Arab League's meeting of 22 foreign ministers in Cairo on Saturday. But it was even louder from pundits and ordinary people.

Perhaps the most remarkable and unexpected reaction came from Saudi Arabia, whose foreign minister, Prince Saud Al-Faisal, said bluntly and publicly that Hezbollah's decision to cross the Lebanese border, attack Israel, and kidnap its soldiers has left the Shiite group on its own to face Israel. The unspoken message here was, "We hope they blow you away."

=========================================

Message to my Lebanese friends - lie down with dogs, wake up with scorpions.

Next time find the courage to kick out the dogs, or God fobid ask the Israelis or Americans for help.

The nuances of International law will not help you if you have no international friends.

When the Saudis are rooting for the Israelis, my advice is to hide in the basement until this blows over. Six, eight weeks max. No one is going to stop this until the Israelis decide to stop.

Time to drop your illusions.

[Matthew]

R -
You'll find a variety of other active israeli, palestinian, and lebanese bloggers and diarists here:

http://truthlaidbear.com/mideastcrisis.php

[R]

Glob,

I see I pissed you off, good. Now, as for your relatives in bomb shelters, despite what you care or don't care about, they have my sympathies. As for HA, the blogger on this site has complained aplenty about them and so have we...
As for being human shields for HA, no more than you are human shields to the IDF. In other words not at all. Fortunately, I have many many many friends in Lebanon from different regions and sects, including a lot of the Shias you seem to hate and despise so much (does that qualify as racism, a superiority complex, whatever...), some of whom live in dahieh, the suburbs your IDF have obliterated. None of them support HA or has seen a katyusha in his life, let alone the larger missiles HA has or doesnt have. THe point being, HA did not ask anyone where to put its missiles, and few people if any actually know where they are... I could try and explain to you for all eternity but you dont want to understand, hence my remark about you being dense, in my earlier post. As for all the complaints you raised about the brutality that Muslim fundamentalists in the world seem to revel in, not only do I condemn it, but despise it and the people who commit it...
So there you have it, you painted a picture with fallible people who support and harbor terrorists on our side of the border, and peace loving tree huggers on your side of the border. Well my friend, toddlers in Disneyland do not commit the kind of atrocities that Israel has committed over the years. Only brutal murderers do. And if anyone has been whining for years and years, it has been Israel, with its F16's and tanks and destroyers, it whines even as it bombs our cities, our ports, airports, kills our civilians, destroys what it calls "terrorist infrastructure". Apparently it has illuded me that my whole fucking country is terrorist infrastructure and I thank you kindly for pointing that out. By the way, savages with F16s are no better than savages with katyushas... You raved and ranted for ever and failed to answer my most basic point. Wrong does not justify wrong.
Now I have raved and ranted so maybe you can go troll somewhere else now.

[Globular Cluster]

"Honestly anonymous, you made me lose any sympathy I had for the Israeli civilian deaths. May you and HA beat each other to hell."

You'll need a shrink to help unravel the uncountably complex layers of self-pity involved in that statement.

[R]

Glob,

Very funny. You made me laugh, well, more like smirk, but its a start.

You said: "Remember, the Zionists are the sons of monkeys and pigs but we control the world"
I say:
1- I am not a muslim fundamentalist, or a muslim for that part, so i don't talk like that.
2- The zionists are not sons of monkeys, but you may well be.
3- You seem to have a penchant for sweeping generalizations in your sarcasm. Could that be a blinding hatred in your heart for all things arab and muslim? If so, are you any better than the Islamofascists that both you and me hate?

[Globular Cluster]

R,

You stated you are glad you pissed me off, which is the goal of a troll, yet you accuse me of trolling. I am merely offering my take on things that differs from the comfortable moral-equivalence you bask in. Indeed, your response was little more than a rant, as you yourself admit. It also isn't racist to point out flaws in Islam or in the Arab world.

I'm really not pissed off at you, R. I find you adorable. If you insist that my friends and family, and countries I love are really murderers no better than the Islamist savages you admit are fallable, then I guess we have nothing much to say to each other. I hope that you feel soothed by the fantasy that all groups and countries are equally depraved. Certainly it is intellectually very easy, and this delusion does absolve you of any loss of honor you might feel when someone points out the dishonesty of your position.

[Kolya]

I wonder if it might be possible for the Lebanese people to say to Hezbollah "look we do not want to get involved in your fights." All your military activities and resources are to be confined to the southern section of the country (this includes any arms stores, shipping sites, missile launchers etc). If Israel retaliates you are on your own, we will not help you. If Lebanon could be partitioned into Hezbollahland and NonHezbollahland the problem would be much simpler.

Is such a solution possible? Because eventually everyone in Lebanon will be forced to choose between either fighting on Hezbollah's side or fighting against it (or at least isolating it into it's own area) to avoid getting caught up in their battles. If Hezbollah wants to act like a state it can take the consequences.

Forget about morality arguments - they will not settle anything. Hezbollah supporters have to decide what they are willing to sacrifice to fight Israel. I am quite sure that if Israel had the capacity to cleanly kill all the HA militants and destroy their weapons and leave others untouched they would do so. I don't believe Hezbollah (or for that manner many other Arabs) would choose the clean option.

[M. Simon]

GC,

I have noticed exactly what you have reported. The Israeli blogs are for the most part are not hysterical, not whining, sucking up their losses and focsing on how to win.

The Lebanese blogs are full of whining - "Why did you do this to us? We are not friends of Hizbollah."

The utter lack of manhood is disheartening. The Lebanese will never have a country of their own if they don't get some balls. Of course their lack of balls is exactly what put them in the current situation.

Here is a good place to find blogs from the countries involved. It changes every day.

Truth Laid Bear.

[R]

GLob now you made me laugh,

You are not offering any take on things that we dont already know and have heard so many times as stated by your PM, defence minister and many generals. We know the Israeli official position, and don't need to see it repeated mindlessly on our blogs.
Glob, there is nothing racist in pointing out flaws in the arab or Islamic world, there are plenty of them. It is racist however to generalize that to every arab or muslim or person who lives with arabs and muslims and knows that they are humans - like you, and are mostly good people.
Finally, there is nothing easy about having my family under constant threat of being killed by the IDF, eventhough they have nothing to do with HA, or this war. So again, decency and empathy, not your two best traits eh glob.
You are right about one thing though, we do have nothing to say to each other - assuming you stop "trolling" this blog.

[Regards from Jerusalem, Israel]

The Lebanese blogs are full of whining - "Why did you do this to us? We are not friends of Hizbollah."

Posted by: M. Simon | Tuesday, July 18, 2006 at 02:47 AM
Actually, there are quite a number of Lebanese bloggers who will tell you that Hizb'Allah is a legitimate part of the Lebanese political/military system.

They just whine because they want to keep their IDF trophy soldiers at no additional cost. Too bad.

[James]

I have seen a lot of posts complaining about the Lebanese "whining" about their losses.
Well they are looking at 220 dead and 850 injured. They can't stop the assault, the world has given Israel a green light to continue its onslaught, and you guys want them to stop complaining too. Amazing!

[M. Simon]

R,

If HA is using your roads and bridges then your roads and bridges are part of the terrorist infrastructure.

Get some balls and drive the MoFos out of your country. Or suffer when the Israelis do your job for you. You don't like their methods? Feel free to use your own. If you can summon the courage.

This could have been totally avoided if all you HA non-supporters had actually done something about your non-support other than acquiese.

Besides the Iranians have offered to rebuild your country. Just don't ask the price.

[M. Simon]

James,

Cry me a river. If the Lebanese don't like the results let them get some guns and drive the HA out of their country.

If the losses would be more than having the Israelis do it then letting the Israelis have at it is profitable. Despite the current and future costs. If this is costing more than a do it yourself project then the Lebanese made a huge error in tolerating the HA. Lebanese stupidity may be Israel's problem. It is not their fault.

It will be interesting to see what the HA does to the Lebanese when they start retreating. I see problems coming soon.

The Lebanese may need to get their guns in any case.

BTW the Arab League has sided with the Israelis (see above 02:01 AM). Truly historic. The Lebanese are screwed. Funny thing is so are the Palestinians. Bad political choices can get people killed. It appears that the Lebanese and Palestinians are in deep (as our President likes to say) shit.

[Globular Cluster]

Let's not forget Iraqi bloggers:

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2006/07/no-more-half-solutions.html

A very active blog with lots of comments. Enjoy.

[M. Simon]

Regards,

I have mostly seen the whining as I described. It is interesting that some are seeing HA as a legit part of the government.

For those folks then I'd have to say that HA has declared war on behalf of Lebanon. Enjoy.

===========================================

here is an interesting one:

Reply to a Jordanian.

[The Perpetual Refugee]

James, thank you.

[helgy]

UNIFIL is useless. They are deployed across Lebanon/Israel border for years and do nothing, cause they are scared to death of Hizballah.

[Jack Donaldson]

R and James,

I think you need to read the writing on the wall. Your government IS Hezbollah and they declared war on the world's 4th most powerful military. Most Arabs think it was stupid of your country's government to declare war on Israel.

Don't whine that killing 6 IDF soldiers and capturing 2 last week was supposedly not an act of war. Don't whine that you just wanted to mind your own business and give your kids piano lessons when your "government" did this.

You have to take responsibility for seeing that you have a decent government. That, in this case, does NOT mean voting. It means grabbing a gun and shooting those fellow citizens who got you into this mess.

Using blog comments to whine only makes it seem like you would like Israel to stop and leave Hezbollah in control of your country. Thus you DO support Hezbollah.

I have never been able to understand defeatest leftist male pacifists in the USA because I keep wondering where are their balls and why they assume that women will want to procreate with them when they have an attitude of "let our enemies get nuclear weapons". I always think "why don't we send you pacifists to a country controlled by terrorists and see how long it takes for you to change your mind."

But now I am seeing actual leftists who really ARE living in a country controlled by terrorists...and shockingly, they are OK WITH THAT!!!

So I have to ask a question of R and James:

1) If you see a busty, beautiful 18 year old woman in Beirut walking home from college...would you ever have the courage to approach her and ask her out? Please answer and, if married, answer as if you were not yet married.

2) If you are looking at her and longing to sleep with her...and you see a Hezbollah man approach her and start talking to her...would you be jealous. Would you try to approach and compete with him with your charm or would you ACQUIESCE and let the Hezbollah man procede without competition from you? Remember that you saw her first. In fact, imagine that you spoke to her first and are at the ice cream counter buying her an ice cream when the Hezzie approaches to meet her as well.

I am assuming that you would let him procede.

3) If he starts to drag her away with a gun to her head instead of using his charm...would you do something about it? Keep in mind that you wanted her as your girlfriend...and now Hezbollah is taking the woman you wanted by force. Will you act?

I assume not.

What is really frightening about reading the opinions of Leb cowards...is that they they are showing that leftists in the USA would probably be the same way! They complain about the liberation of Iraq from afar...but they would complain about the liberation of Massachusetts as well if it were to be captured by some foreign power and Canada were to work with other Americans to try to win Massachusetts back.

I just don't understand the mentality.

Apparently the Christian Arabs LOST the civil war and lost their will to rule themselves.

Or maybe its just that blogging attracts leftists at a time when brave lebanese are out helping the Israelis try to do a better job in targeting.

That is what you need to be doing by the way. Complaints about the targetting? Then do some research and blog about where the good Hezzie targets are!

Too scared to do that? I thought so. The Hezzies would possibly learn that such and such a blogger is presenting specific info about where their assets are.

They might come and cut your head off. So it is best to spend your time polluting the blogosphere with politically correct comments that won't get you killed by any real bad guys. You know the IDF will never come kill a blogger...so you're safe condemning them.

Cowards won't even use anonymous blog comments to try to give Israelis advice on where, exactly, they should target to weaken Hezbollah.

[Jack Donaldson]

Latest news: Iran wants Hezbollah to give back the 2 captured soldiers. This may happen in the next 24 hours.

[Mon]

Anyone who does not have sympathy for the innocents being killed, mained, or wounded on BOTH sides is heartless. But war is war. And in every war from the beginning of time, innocents suffer and die.

Lebanon the country did not start this war. Point for Lebanon. But Lebanon the country did nothing to stop it and let Hezbollah control a portion of their country lying in wait to attack Israel. Point for Israel. The attack on Israel came from Lebanon. Major point for Israel. Anyone who does not see that is not worth talking to. I say talking to because anyone can argue, insult, and name call. That is not constructive, but obviously it makes some people feel better.

It is no mistake that Hezbollah operates freely in southern Lebanon. Lebanon is a weak country in terms of internal politics. Lebanon was and is trying to become a stronger democracy. Facts. Change takes time. Fact. The Lebanese Army is not strong enough and nationistic enough to be able to take on Hezbollah. Very sad fact.

Hezbollah took advantage of its position and the weakness of Lebanon politically and militarily to stop it, to start a war. Uncontrovertable truth.

So now what? War. Innocent people die on both sides. Only God knows what will become on Lebanon now.

What I do know is that Israel has the power to completely decimate Lebanon, but Israel will not do it. Israel does not want either to annihilate Lebanon or to occupy Lebanon. So whatever is left of Lebanon in the end, it will be left to the Lebanese people. Just plain facts.

Israel wants only be to be left in peace. Israel does not care if Lebanon "likes" Israel or not. Israel has only one concern - a non aggressive neighbor to the north. So you think that this war will turn the Lebanese people against Israel? Wake up and smell the coffee. Most of the Lebanese people will never "like" Israel. But if they are smart, and if they have the ability, they will learn to live with Israel in peace.

Yes, it is war, Lebanon is suffering, and innocents die. Now is the time for whining if you must. But this war will end as all wars do.

Lebanon does not have a right to exist. Just as no country has a right to exist. Lebanon must fight, internally, politically, and maybe yet again physically, for its right to exist as a free and democratic nation. Freedom is never free and real peace is not imposed. You have to want both, to have to fight for both, everyday.

For what my opinion is worth, it would be a HUGE mistake for Lebanon to rely on any peace keeping force to control their southern border. Real peace cannot be imposed, it absolutely must come from within. IMO, the Lebanese Army must take over the southern border if Lebanon is to have any real chance.

I have been reading this blog long enough to know that the good people here want a free and peaceful democratic Lebanon. God bless you all whatever your religion. But if you want that, Lebanese Army to the southern border should be your rallying cry, for whatever effect you can have on the Lebanese people and the Lebanese government. Sometimes turning points in history are thrust upon people. This is one such time. Whether it is tomorrow, or weeks from now when Hezbollah is more severely weakened, the only real hope for Lebanon is to send its army to the sourthern border. Outside peace keepers may feel easier, may seems preferable to the loss of innocent life, but it is absolutely the wrong way to go and will keep Lebanon a country in crisis for many years to come.

God helps those who help themselves. But even more importantly in our human world, the free and democratic people of the world help those who help themselves to freedom and democracy. Say what you will about the US, Australia, Japan, Britain, etc., turning their backs on Lebanon, but they will reach out to Lebanon when Lebanon shows it is willing to fight for its own right to exist as a free and democratic nation.

So I say, Lebanese Army to the south and no to international "false peace" keepers.

[Yair (Israel)]

Here is something I posted elsewhere in hope of starting a discussion:

What the f@ck is going around here?

All the Israeli commentators I heard at the first day of the war were sure about this: Olmert wants to "act crazy" to deter future attacks, and cement his standing in internal politics. Within 48 hrs there will be huge international pressure for an immediate cease fire. HA apparently had the same idea when it started it all... I too confess to have believed that. Indeed, in that first day France, Russia and other countries called for an immediate cease fire and an end to the totally disproportional Israeli response. You all remember that, don't you?

Then they had a talk in the G8 summit and gave their statement. The channel 10 and channel 22 commentators were astounded: No talk of proportionality and no mention of cease fire or any kind of time-line. They are all signed on it. Including Russia and France etc. Lebanese bloggers raised hell.

Here is my theory: Iran broke a sacred international taboo. It's not about respecting the sovereignty of Israel or Lebanon, kidnapping or destabilizing. What is the Worst nightmare of world leaders? It is well defined: Nukes in the hand of "terrorists" i.e. of small non-state players. I think Iran got too close to that with HA. They took a guerrilla group and gave it top-of-the-line nation-state-level weapons. Silkworm ground to sea missiles. Long range ground to ground missiles (like the Zilzal) etc. And now they are developing nukes...

your thoughts?

[Mon]

Yair,

I predicted on day one, no one would come to Lebanon's aid. Who knows what all the internal machinations are, but there is one thing the free world completely understands. There is no bigger threat to peace and the free world than Islamic terrorists. Anyone, anywhere can take on the Islamic terrorists with impunity. All the political posturing aside, bottom line, feel free to kill terrorists in response to any terrorist provocation. Hamas and now Hezbollah have failed to see the change in the landscape. Hezbollah has given Israel the opportunity to join the GWOT in earnest.

[Yair (Israel)]

Mon,

I would agree no one was expected to send an army to help them, but a statement requesting a cease fire? The position you are voicing might be Bush's position but not the Europeans, Russians or Chinese. They would never support attacks on Islamists. And by the way, HA is only marginally a terrorist group. They bombed a few embassies, for sure. But most of their actions are guerrilla-like.

[Globular Cluster]

"And by the way, HA is only marginally a terrorist group. They bombed a few embassies, for sure. But most of their actions are guerrilla-like."

I think mom needs to take away your XBox.

[Mon]

Definition of a TERRORIST organization:

April 18, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon – A truck-bomb detonated by a remote control exploded in front of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 63 employees, including the CIA's Middle East director, and wounding 120. Hizballah, with financial backing from Iran, was responsible for the attack.

October 23, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon – A truck loaded with a bomb crashed into the lobby of the U.S. Marines headquarters in Beirut, killing 241 soldiers and wounding 81. The attack was carried out by Hizballah with the help of Syrian intelligence and financed by Iran.

January 18, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon – Malcolm Kerr, a Lebanese born American who was president of the American University of Beirut, was killed by two gunmen outside his office. Hizballah said the assassination was part of the organization's plan to "drive all Americans out from Lebanon."

March 16, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon -- Hizballah kidnapped William Buckley, a political officer at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut. Buckley was supposed to be exchanged for prisoners. However when the transaction failed to take place, he was reportedly transported to Iran. Although his body was never found, the U.S. administration declared the American diplomat dead.

September 20, 1984, Beirut, Lebanon -- A suicide bomb attack on the U.S. Embassy in East Beirut killed 23 people and injured 21. The American and British ambassadors were slightly injured in the attack, attributed to the Iranian backed Hizballah group.

September 9, 1986, Beirut, Lebanon -- Continuing its anti-American attacks, Hizballah kidnapped Frank Reed, director of the American University in Beirut, whom they accused of being "a CIA agent." He was released 44 months later.

September 12, 1986, Beirut, Lebanon -- Hizballah kidnapped Joseph Cicippio, the acting comptroller at the American University in Beirut. Cicippio was released five years later on December 1991.

November 8, 1991, Beirut, Lebanon – A 100-kg car bomb destroyed the administration building of the American University in Beirut, killing one person and wounding at least a dozen.

May 9, 2001, Tekoa, West Bank -- Kobi Mandell, 14, an American-Israeli, was found stoned to death along with a friend in a cave near the Jewish settlement of Tekoa. Two organizations, the Islamic Jihad and Hizballah, claimed responsibility for the attack.

Russia - what planet are you living on? Russia's "official" position on the Belsen terrorists and the terrorists who recently killed their citizens in Iraq is -- hunt them down and kill them. Do you honestly think Russia could give two hoots if Israel kills Hezbollah terrorists.

Like I said before, nevermind what politicians say, that is only posturing for the press, watch what they do. It is open season on terrorists world-wide.

[Oceanguy]

Before the shit talk, Tony Blair begged Bush to agree to deploy international forces "that can stop bombardment coming into Israel." The idea got tossed around between world leaders, and Israel has already rejected it. Would that be an international force to monitor the current UN force?

The way to stop the current mess is for Hizbollah to be defeated. Support that end with all your might and you'll have a worthwhile and loyal friend to your south.

What is happening to Lebanon is tragic and horrible. Still, it's the right thing to do.